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      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2013
     
    Don't tell Rossi or our weather might become even more unpredictable, when he starts moving the sun.
    • CommentAuthortinker
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2013
     
    Gravity powered!
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      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2013
     
    You can tell Frank.
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      CommentAuthorGrimer
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2013
     
    The Eric GraviMobil can be simulated with a VentoMobil moving vertically.

    A vertical alpha-atmosphere wind blows down the face of a sheer cliff.

    Vertical rack rails are attached to the cliff and the VentoMobil is provided with pinion wheels running on the rack rails.

    When pointed into the wind the Ventomobil will climb steadily up the cliff.
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      CommentAuthoralsetalokin
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2013 edited
     
    False analogy.

    Perhaps instead you would like to address the phenomenon of the gravitational slingshot using your "atmosphere" model of gravity flowing. Why does the spacecraft experience _no_ centrifugal force as it whips tightly around the star, being in free fall the whole time?
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      CommentAuthorGrimer
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2013
     
    I don't agree that it is a false analogy.

    The action of gravity is equivalent to the action of a vertical wind in the same way as a £10 note is equivalent to ten one pound coins.

    At least you seem to agree that the VentoMobil will climb the cliff. That's a good start. If you disagree say so now before I move on to the next point.

    As for slingshots, they show that on a large scale a device can use gravity in a way not readily appreciated for many years. The chap who claims to have discovered the effect has a website where he complains bitterly that he wasn't given the credit.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2013
     
    ...and I (and probably anybody who has studied the matter at all) do not agree that
    The action of gravity is equivalent to the action of a vertical wind
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      CommentAuthoralsetalokin
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: GrimerThe chap who claims to have discovered the effect has a website where he complains bitterly that he wasn't given the credit.

    I have found that one who argues with Jove generally loses.



    Posted By: GrimerI don't agree that it is a false analogy.


    Well, hush my mouth and call me "mammy".



    Posted By: GrimerThe action of gravity is equivalent to the action of a vertical wind in the same way as a £10 note is equivalent to ten one pound coins


    Wrong! A ten pound note is equivalent to _something_ only because your central bank tells you it is! It is just a fancy piece of artwork. Ten "one pound" coins.... of 1836 mintage..... on the other hand..... can be melted down and cast into musket balls and fired against ridiculous pseudoscientific heresies like the ones you pretend to. The tenpound note is useful as tinder, not tender, to light the fire under the smelting crucible of fact and experiment.

    Gravity does not flow. There is no region of lesser gravitational pressure into which a gravitational wind could flow. Your analogy is miserable and false.



    Posted By: GrimerAt least you seem to agree that the VentoMobil will climb the cliff. That's a good start. If you disagree say so now before I move on to the next point.


    For certain combinations of wind velocity, air density, vehicle mass and gravitational acceleration, sure, it will climb the cliff. For other combinations of those variables, it won't. Once again, your analogy is ill specified, hand-waving, makes unfounded assumptions, and is generally just wrong.

    There is no need for you to attempt to move on to any next point. Try citing forty-year-old concrete research, and drop a few names; that works much better... for you.
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      CommentAuthorGrimer
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2013
     
    Posted By: Angus...and I (and probably anybody who has studied the matter at all) do not agree that
    The action of gravity is equivalent to the action of a vertical wind

    I know I can safely assume that no-one on this forum agrees so your post conveys zero information.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2013 edited
     
    Maybe it doesn't convey any information, but in that case neither did yours.
  1.  
    Frank, your analogy isn't even coherent. Get some sleep, and in the morning see if Doctor will agree to adjust your meds.

    Wind flows along isobars of pressure. Not across them! And the direction wind flows along isobars, CW or CCW, differs depending on which hemisphere of the Earth you are considering. In the NH, wind flows clockwise around high pressure areas and counterclockwise around low pressure areas, and vice versa in the SH.
    For "gravity is like wind" to be a valid analogy, not only must gravity _flow_, with this flow ultimately caused by differences in "gravitational pressure", it must also flow _along isogravitational contours_ and not across them.

    Now, please explain the gravitational slingshot's lack of centrifugal force using your "wind" or "atmosphere" analogy.
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      CommentAuthorGrimer
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2013
     
    Posted By: alsetalokin

    Posted By: GrimerAt least you seem to agree that the VentoMobil will climb the cliff. That's a good start. If you disagree say so now before I move on to the next point.

    ...
    For certain combinations of wind velocity, air density, vehicle mass and gravitational acceleration, sure, it will climb the cliff.
    ...

    Thank you for your co-operation, Al. You are kind to humour me. ;-)
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2013
     
    http://www.gravityassist.com/#_Toc127789949


    I wouldn't say "bitter" but the story should be better known. Disney would love it as a rags to riches film. ...well maybe rags to decent obscurity.
  2.  
    Continuing: If I put up a sail in the wind, and extract energy from the wind to propel my sailed vessel, then the wind downwind of my sail contains less energy. That is, I can block the wind, extract or divert or channel it, so that downstream of my blockage you can measure no wind or even a reversed flow of wind. Stack a bunch of duct fans in series in a duct, blow in one end, and every fan will turn with lesser RPM than the ones upwind of it. Gravity does NOT behave this way at all. You cannot shield it, you cannot affect the acceleration of one object by placing another object above or below the first, except by the addition or subtraction of the gravitational acceleration due to the second body. You can stack as many marbles in a row as you like, set them to free fall, and they will all fall at the same rate; the ones in front don't use up the gravity so that the ones in back fall more slowly, nor do the ones in back "block the wind" pushing the ones in front down the gravity well.
    Nor is there a gravitational "low pressure zone" that allows flow of gravity from some high pressure reservoir out at infinite distance all around everything, flowing into each and every massive object everywhere. The analogy is just silly, it does not correspond to the way "gravity behaves" at all.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2013
     
    Al - as Frank himself has pointed out: no information is being transmitted.
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2013
     
    Posted By: alsetalokin
    Posted By: joshsPlace one hand on a wall and don't let it off. Follow that surface to the exit.

    Doesn't always work. There can be "island walls" that aren't connected to the enclosure wall, and if you are dropped in a region of island walls you'll just wind up going in a complicated loop.
    You can be dropped in a box and they can weld the walls behind you as well.
    • CommentAuthorLakes
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2013
     
  3.  
    Posted By: AngusAl - as Frank himself has pointed out: no information is being transmitted.

    None is being received, perhaps. But you can't deny that there is a message contained in what is being transmitted.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2013
     
    Posted By: alsetalokin
    Posted By: AngusAl - as Frank himself has pointed out: no information is being transmitted.

    None is being received, perhaps. But you can't deny that there is a message contained in what is being transmitted.



    True, and it is well said. However its informational impact is blunted by the fact that those who receive it already agree.
    • CommentAuthorBigOilRep
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2013
     
    Posted By: GrimerI know I can safely assume that no-one on this forum agrees so your post conveys zero information.

    At least it doesn't increase information entropy, unlike your posts.

    As I read your missives, I can actually feel myself getting perceptibly closer to being dust, floating around the intergalactic void. In fact, after reading your posts this ending seems quite welcoming.