@loreman: Down under, fraud must be proven "beyond reasonable doubt?" That's heavy. On the topside of the world civil matters use a lighter standard, "preponderance of the evidence". OJ Simpson was found "not guilty" in the criminal courts, but in the civil wrongful death lawsuit with the lighter standard he was found responsible for the wrongful deaths of his estranged wife and her friend.

But I agree that Steorn haven't technically defrauded anyone yet. The original investment loans were converted to shares in the company, early on, so no repayment is necessary; the early investors presumably were funding R&D efforts, but since they have been repaid and now own shares, so what if there wasn't really much R and no D at all. They bought something on spec, it seems to have decreased radically in value, too bad, caveat emptor, but the Seanster et al. get to stay out of gaol, if not the poorhouse.

Still, if Sheik Yerbouti Al-Overtheplace decides to put some pocketmoney into the Steorn account, the farce could continue for some time yet.

Posted By: alsetalokin@loreman: Down under, fraud must be proven "beyond reasonable doubt?" That's heavy. On the topside of the world civil matters use a lighter standard, "preponderance of the evidence". OJ Simpson was found "not guilty" in the criminal courts, but in the civil wrongful death lawsuit with the lighter standard he was found responsible for the wrongful deaths of his estranged wife and her friend.

But I agree that Steorn haven't technically defrauded anyone yet. The original investment loans were converted to shares in the company, early on, so no repayment is necessary; the early investors presumably were funding R&D efforts, but since they have been repaid and now own shares, so what if there wasn't really much R and no D at all. They bought something on spec, it seems to have decreased radically in value, too bad, caveat emptor, but the Seanster et al. get to stay out of gaol, if not the poorhouse.

Still, if Sheik Yerbouti Al-Overtheplace decides to put some pocketmoney into the Steorn account, the farce could continue for some time yet.

Wrongful death uses a negligence based standard of evidence, even if the death was intentional; thus preponderance of the evidence. The standard generally in the U.S. in a civil case for fraud is "clear and convincing". As with Loreman's Australia, this is very, very tough burden on the plaintiff. Fraud cases are difficult to win, very difficult. You're absolutely right; so far there is no evidence of which I'm aware sufficient for a civil claim in a U.S. Court against Steorn on the basis of fraud.

Posted By: tinkerSo you think Quanten. A fraud. I (as you know) differ - and I am neither a muppet nor a cultee, but condisered by my peers to be a very streetwise cockney with a varied scientific training and a good education.

So we can agree to differ in a gentlemanly way i hope - after all wtf do you care about the investors? A group a pretty rich men who you don't know and are unlikely to ask you for charity.

Tinker

It is way too late for "gentlemanly way". 30 years too late. That is about the time I learned that gentlemanly way only works if both party are gentleman, and if one is the other not, then the gentleman will be screwed. Since you have no way to check the other party then it is much safer to NOT assume "gentlemanly way" without proper evidence the other party is a gentleman.

Sean is definitively not a gentleman, as his repeated lie proved, and his "screw you skeptic" demo which demonstrated nothing whatsoever.

I do not care whether the men which were taken for a ride are poor, rich, or named cresus. The law is the same for teh rich, poor, young, old. I cry when a young person is murdered as much as when an old one is. I spite on a thief whether the victim is rich or poor.

"varied scientific training" I am sorry, but if you find the last demo proper, then you should definitively revisit your "scientific" training.

Still, we have the remarkable inventions of Tinker. The chocolate fireplace is almost as good as the folding leather saxophone.

I'm working on replications as we...er...type.