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    • CommentAuthornycbon
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2010
     
    Posted By: Grimer
    Posted By: nycbon
    Posted By: Grimer
    Posted By: nycbon
    To be fair, he also believes in the existence of a infallible, omnipotent, caring, involved god ...

    I do indeed.

    And in Jesus Christ his only Son, Our Lord.


    classic... absurd, but classic

    It is like pressing a button "...his son, our one true lord, the maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen...."

    If we're quoting bits of the creed, seeing it's the third Sunday in Lent, let's have it in full.


    Credo in unum Deum,
    Patrem omnipoténtem,
    Factórem cæli et terræ,
    Visibílium ómnium et invisibílium.
    Et in unum Dóminum Iesum Christum,
    Fílium Dei Unigénitum,
    Et ex Patre natum ante ómnia sæcula.
    Deum de Deo, lumen de lúmine, Deum verum de Deo vero,
    Génitum, non factum, consubstantiálem Patri:
    Per quem ómnia facta sunt.
    Qui propter nos hómines et propter nostram salútem
    Descéndit de cælis.
    Et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto
    Ex María Vírgine, et homo factus est.
    Crucifíxus étiam pro nobis sub Póntio Piláto;
    Passus, et sepúltus est,
    Et resurréxit tértia die, secúndum Scriptúras,
    Et ascéndit in cælum, sedet ad déxteram Patris.
    Et íterum ventúrus est cum glória,
    Iudicáre vivos et mórtuos,
    Cuius regni non erit finis.
    Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dóminum et vivificántem:
    Qui ex Patre Filióque procédit.
    Qui cum Patre et Fílio simul adorátur et conglorificátur:
    Qui locútus est per prophétas.
    Et unam, sanctam, cathólicam et apostólicam Ecclésiam.
    Confíteor unum baptísma in remissiónem peccatorum.
    Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum,
    Et vitam ventúri sæculi. Amen.


    I feel so dirty now... eww

    So, Grimer, Have you ever actually tried to see the folly (contradictions, absurdity, impact, etc) in all of your religious statements? I was raised religious and can put mysel in the mindset of those who are and see the appeal, have you hgave tried the other way around?
    •  
      CommentAuthorGrimer
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2010 edited
     
    Posted By: nycbon ...
    I was raised religious and can put mysel in the mindset of those who are and see the appeal, have you hgave tried the other way around?

    I have not tried taking drugs. I have not tried getting drunk. I have not tried fornication, adultery, sodomy, murder.

    And I have not tried lots of other things that I think are dangerous occasions of sin. Like Ulysses I have tied myself to the mast - specifically the Barque of Peter, the Roman Catholic Church.

    Obviously sin, like the sirens' song, has a strong appeal. There wouldn't be any virtue in resisting temptation otherwise.

    "Homer relates how Ulysses has himself tied to the mast in order that he may hear the sirens' song, yet not follow all other sailors who, having done so, are driven to follow the sound."

    "Although sirens are popularly depicted as floppy Victorian nymphs it should be remembered that in early representations of the legend they are more formidable, sometimes depicted as birds with women's heads, or even male and bearded, with claws like vultures. They are representatives of alienating, god-like powers whose force we should know but against which we must be forearmed."
    •  
      CommentAuthorDuracell
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2010
     
    Ah Frank... Surely moderation in everything is the key - including abstinence?
    • CommentAuthornova
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2010
     
    A person does not become an atheist by taking drugs, getting drunk, murdering and all the others. A person becomes an atheist when they decide to reject bullshit.
    Give up being a dupe. A mark. A victim.
    • CommentAuthorscience
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2010
     
    Posted By: Grimer
    I have not tried taking drugs. I have not tried getting drunk. I have not tried fornication, adultery, sodomy, murder.


    Well, you're missing out on some of the best life has to offer
    •  
      CommentAuthorDerrickA
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2010
     
    I'm still trying to reconcile "Thou shalt not kill" with the body count in the bible.
    http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2007/01/how-many-has-god-killed-complete-list.html
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2010
     
    Posted By: DerrickAI'm still trying to reconcile "Thou shalt not kill" with the body count in the bible.
    http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2007/01/how-many-has-god-killed-complete-list.html
    The commandment is "Thou shalt not murder". The Bible promotes the idea of justifiable homicide, sometime en-masse. You see if the invisible man in the sky favors you and yours it's not murder to kill them and theirs.
    • CommentAuthornova
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2010
     
    "You see if the invisible man in the sky favors you and yours it's not murder to kill them and theirs. "

    And if you believe in the invisible man you are privileged.
    And being privileged you can do can overturn science.
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2010
     
    Posted By: nova"You see if the invisible man in the sky favors you and yours it's not murder to kill them and theirs. "

    And if you believe in the invisible man you are privileged.
    And being privileged you can do can overturn science.
    And you get to overturn anything else that requires logic and/or evidence.
    •  
      CommentAuthorCitizen Wolf
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2010 edited
     
    @Frank
    What is this idea that you call sin? Is it merely a set of rules of things that you should not do? What real moral guidelines do you have foe these notions?
    Is lying a sin? Always? Even when to save the life of another?
    Is sex outside marriage a sin? Always? Even if you're stuck on a desert island with nobody to conduct the ceremony?

    Having moral absolutes, and the notion of 'sins' that cannot be changed in itself leads to immoral thinking and behaviour. This is clearly borne out in the case of his Holy-Disgracefullness who lies (that's right, lies) about condoms, saying that they contribute to the spread of AIDS. By doing this he knows that people will believe him and so not use them. His actions result in the deaths of people. This is what hapens when you have dogma. Prescribed sins are dogma and, in my opinion, immoral.

    And just so you understand, I'm not saying that all is permissible and that people can't do wrong (witness the Pope), I'm just saying that we should try to minimize harm that we do. If we do no harm, then it's not immoral, and certainly not a 'sin'. And, of course I don't accept any silly and completely unproven and unevidenced notions of spiritual harm.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDerrickA
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2010
     
    Posted By: joshs
    Posted By: DerrickAI'm still trying to reconcile "Thou shalt not kill" with the body count in the bible.
    http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2007/01/how-many-has-god-killed-complete-list.html
    The commandment is "Thou shalt not murder". The Bible promotes the idea of justifiable homicide, sometime en-masse. You see if the invisible man in the sky favors you and yours it's not murder to kill them and theirs.


    Ah yes, the "Justifiable" homicide, like where God sends a couple of bears to shred 42 children to death for making fun of fun of Elisha's bald head. Nice. ( 2 KINGS 2:23-24 )
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2010
     
    Posted By: Citizen Wolf@Frank
    What is this idea that you call sin? Is it merely a set of rules of things that you should not do? What real moral guidelines do you have foe these notions?
    Is lying a sin? Always? Even when to save the life of another?
    Is sex outside marriage a sin? Always? Even if you're stuck on a desert island with nobody to conduct the ceremony?

    Having moral absolutes, and the notion of 'sins' that cannot be changed in itself leads to immoral thinking and behaviour. This is clearly borne out in the case of his Holy-Disgracefullness who lies (that's right, lies) about condoms, saying that they contribute to the spread of AIDS. By doing this he knows that people will believe him and so not use them. His actions result in the deaths of people. This is what hapens when you have dogma. prescribed sins are dogma and, in my opinion, immoral.

    And just so you understand, I'm not saying that all is permissible and that people can't do wrong (witness the Pope), I'm just saying that we should try to minimize harm that we do. If we do no harm, then it's not immoral, and certainly not a 'sin'. And, of course I don't accept any silly and completely unproven and unevidenced notions of spiritual harm.
    How dare you so blaspheme! Sex between consenting persons must be restricted to those who have sworn themselves to property contracts between themselves and the state performed in a ceremony that is recorded so that the entire community will have a memory of the agreement. It is unholy to engage in sex without a contract. God wants the lawyers to know where all the dollars go. Do not disobey his wishes.
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2010
     
    Posted By: DerrickA
    Posted By: joshs
    Posted By: DerrickAI'm still trying to reconcile "Thou shalt not kill" with the body count in the bible.
    http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2007/01/how-many-has-god-killed-complete-list.html
    The commandment is "Thou shalt not murder". The Bible promotes the idea of justifiable homicide, sometime en-masse. You see if the invisible man in the sky favors you and yours it's not murder to kill them and theirs.


    Ah yes, the "Justifiable" homicide, like where God sends a couple of bears to shred 42 children to death for making fun of fun of Elisha's bald head. Nice. ( 2 KINGS 2:23-24 )
    That's it! And in his everlasting love he sent the 42 to everlasting damnation. That will teach those children created in his image to act like ... children.
    •  
      CommentAuthorNoSideSam
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2010
     
    Posted By: novaA person does not become an atheist by taking drugs, getting drunk, murdering and all the others. ...
    Of course not. Those are just some of the perks.
    • CommentAuthornycbon
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2010
     
    Posted By: Grimer
    Posted By: nycbon...
    I was raised religious and can put mysel in the mindset of those who are and see the appeal, have you hgave tried the other way around?

    I have not tried taking drugs. I have not tried getting drunk. I have not tried fornication, adultery, sodomy, murder.

    And I have not tried lots of other things that I think are dangerous occasions of sin. Like Ulysses I have tied myself to the mast - specifically the Barque of Peter, the Roman Catholic Church.

    Obviously sin, like the sirens' song, has a strong appeal. There wouldn't be any virtue in resisting temptation otherwise.

    "Homer relates how Ulysses has himself tied to the mast in order that he may hear the sirens' song, yet not follow all other sailors who, having done so, are driven to follow the sound."

    "Although sirens are popularly depicted as floppy Victorian nymphs it should be remembered that in early representations of the legend they are more formidable, sometimes depicted as birds with women's heads, or even male and bearded, with claws like vultures. They are representatives of alienating, god-like powers whose force we should know but against which we must be forearmed."


    So thinking logically is an occasion to sin... interesting...
    • CommentAuthornycbon
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2010
     
    So in summary, Grimer,

    you refuse to consider even the possibility that there is no god, because that consideration alone is a sin, thereby preventing you from an chance of abandoning a god that didn't exist in the first place.

    I have to admit that is pretty rock solid... I think
    •  
      CommentAuthorGrimer
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2010
     
    Posted By: Angus@Duracell

    Come now. No discussion of women or religion in the mess. And this place is definitely turning into a mess.

    Couldn't agree more Angus. But New York City Bon started it on the very first page of this thread and others have joined in. I'm sure you will agree that I have a right to defend myself.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDuracell
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2010
     
    Yes of course. And to bear arms. But not necessarily crab claws. Hey if you can get the arms off the bear then you've earned 'em!
    • CommentAuthorsniffle
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2010
     
    It's easier if it's the cross-eyed bear.
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuanten
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2010
     
    Posted By: Grimer
    Posted By: Angus@Duracell

    Come now. No discussion of women or religion in the mess. And this place is definitely turning into a mess.

    Couldn't agree more Angus. But New York City Bon started it on the very first page of this thread and others have joined in. I'm sure you will agree that I have a right to defend myself.


    Haaa. the martyr concept.

    Or you could jsut had the stupid people which will burn in hell alone. After all, why would you have to defend your religion agaisnt the word of the pagan/atheist ? Is your faith so weak that you have to defend it when people mock it ? Is your god so vain that he can#t support the mere thought of us not believing in his existence ?

    No. by your own account of your own faith, and by the hypotheses of an existing omnipotent god, if you both of you are secure in their faith, then none of you should even BOTHER to asnwer us.

    That you indeed feel you have to defend your faith is t me a strong indication that unconsciously know, it isn't as strong as you consciously think it is.