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      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2010 edited
     
    Source Physorg

    When this is developed it will be great for clean water, Orbo not needed.

    Water: Battery-power desalination offers hope to parched areas

    People are developing fuel cells using the difference between water salts and fresh water, I wonder if water can be desalinated during the day using solar cells and then resalinated during the night to produce power? Just a ponder.
    • CommentAuthorUtD_Grant
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2010
     
    Posted By: TrimSource Physorg

    When this is developed it will great for clean water.


    I want a machine that will grate for clean cheese.
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      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2010 edited
     
    How did your date with Mary go?
    Was there any scopperloit?
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2010 edited
     
    Posted By: TrimSource Physorg

    When this is developed it will be great for clean water, Orbo not needed.

    Water: Battery-power desalination offers hope to parched areas

    People are developing fuel cells using the difference between water salts and fresh water, I wonder if water can be desalinated during the day using solar cells and then resalinated during the night to produce power? Just a ponder.


    Don't forget that it takes a lot of energy to desalinate seawater - somewhere around 750 W-h/cu m. That's 2.7 kilojoules per litre. If you want the litre within one minute it is near 50W. And that has nothing to do with the equipment used. It is the energy you have to put into the brine to separate it into salt and water.


    Your comment about resalination at night is very apt. Actually I applied for the patent on something similar about six months ago. However, it would not be efficient the way you describe.
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      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2010
     
    Your comment about resalination at night is very apt. Actually I applied for the patent on something similar about six months ago. However, it would not be efficient the way you describe.

    I hope it works out for you.
    As you probably know the Norwegians and the Dutch are working on getting power from the difference between saline and fresh water. The Americans (sorry Usans) are working on a different draw fluid using ammonia and co2 to get more power.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2010 edited
     
    Posted By: TrimYour comment about resalination at night is very apt. Actually I applied for the patent on something similar about six months ago. However, it would not be efficient the way you describe.

    I hope it works out for you.
    As you probably know the Norwegians and the Dutch are working on getting power from the difference between saline and fresh water. The Americans (sorry Usans) are working on a different draw fluid using ammonia and co2 to get more power.


    I know of both those projects, and the one by Oasys. You seem to be well up on the matter!
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      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2010
     
    Its been on the Internet for a few years. Also I forgot the Italians are players as well if I remember correctly they have devised quite an efficient fuel cell type device that doesn't need a membrane. Which as you know is a big cost and stops even the fresh water resource of the Amazon from competing with the low cost of fossil fuel.
    • CommentAuthorenginerd
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2010
     
    @trim

    I don't think salt-free water is an efficient energy storage system.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2010
     
    Posted By: TrimIts been on the Internet for a few years. Also I forgot the Italians are players as well if I remember correctly they have devised quite an efficient fuel cell type device that doesn't need a membrane. Which as you know is a big cost and stops even the fresh water resource of the Amazon from competing with the low cost of fossil fuel.


    I know the Italian work as well, though I am not sure that it leads to a lower cost. All very interesting!
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2010
     
    Posted By: enginerd@trim

    I don't think salt-free water is an efficient energy storage system.


    I think Trim was talking about generating energy from the chemical potential between river and sea water. The potential is actually huge. The Amazon could run a gigawatt scale plant without even noticing the difference. However the technology isn't quite here yet.

    For energy storage you need a way to separate salt from water.
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      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2010 edited
     
    Plans are afoot to use it with wind turbines. Large concrete balls are dropped into the sea by flooding them and when they are safely anchored to the sea floor at about sixty fathoms the seawater is pumped out by the turbines and replaced with air when the wind stops the air is replaced by seawater entering via turbines so supplying back up power.

    Using solar heat and power to freshen a draw fluid like say ammonia and co2 (more efficient then salt) and then using the most practical combination of the Dutch, Italian and Usan power devices one could have the power equivalent say to a flywheel.

    No the tech isn't perfected yet. But every day so much power goes to waste.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2010
     
    Posted By: TrimPlans are afoot to use it with wind turbines. Large concrete balls are dropped into the sea by flooding them and when they are safely anchored to the sea floor at about sixty fathoms the seawater is pumped out by the turbines and replaced with air when the wind stops the air is replaced by seawater entering via turbines so supplying back up power.

    Using solar heat and power to freshen a draw fluid like say ammonia and co2 (more efficient then salt) and then using the most practical combination of the Dutch, Italian and Usan power devices one could have the power equivalent say to a flywheel.

    No the tech isn't perfected yet. But every day so much power goes to waste.


    Pneumatic storage is also used on land - old mines and caves can be pumped to quite high pressure to store enough power to run turbines in high- cost periods. There is even a plan afoot to excavate caverns and powerhouses 2000 feet underground and run surface water down to generate power. You store the water underground in the excavation, and pump it back to the surface in low-cost periods. Like standard pumped storage, but upside down. Sounds nuts, but has big backing and a pilot going in as we type.

    I am quite interested in the ammonia/co2 concept of Oasys. Have you seen any technical literature?
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      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2010
     
    I first came across it in the New Scientist but all the links are in my old computer. I remember they planned to reactivate the draw fluid by heating it under partial pressure and that it could draw water from brine. But I didn't come across any papers. Sorry.
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2010
     
    Posted By: Angus
    Posted By: TrimPlans are afoot to use it with wind turbines. Large concrete balls are dropped into the sea by flooding them and when they are safely anchored to the sea floor at about sixty fathoms the seawater is pumped out by the turbines and replaced with air when the wind stops the air is replaced by seawater entering via turbines so supplying back up power.

    Using solar heat and power to freshen a draw fluid like say ammonia and co2 (more efficient then salt) and then using the most practical combination of the Dutch, Italian and Usan power devices one could have the power equivalent say to a flywheel.

    No the tech isn't perfected yet. But every day so much power goes to waste.


    Pneumatic storage is also used on land - old mines and caves can be pumped to quite high pressure to store enough power to run turbines in high- cost periods. There is even a plan afoot to excavate caverns and powerhouses 2000 feet underground and run surface water down to generate power. You store the water underground in the excavation, and pump it back to the surface in low-cost periods. Like standard pumped storage, but upside down. Sounds nuts, but has big backing and a pilot going in as we type.

    I am quite interested in the ammonia/co2 concept of Oasys. Have you seen any technical literature?
    It's a lot cheaper to build a 2000' high tower when it is something someone has already dug out of solid rock.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2010
     
    In this case they intend to dig the penstocks and the reservoir caverns using advanced mining technology. It's a Canadian company called Riverbank. The pilot is going in in Maine, I believe.
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      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2010
     
    In England it is planned to store gas at pressure in caverns in Cheshire.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2010
     
    Well this is more like rational discussion at last! I think that large scale energy storage will be the hot ticket item over the next five years. Environmental energy generation seems to have been fairly well worked out for now.
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      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2010
     
    North America has fairly recently become the biggest gas producer in the world overtaking Russia but a few years ago the Usans were worried that they would be at the mercy of foreign states for their supplies but so called 'shale gas' has come to the rescue. Inventions like the Bloom box will help to make electricity cheaper. And trucks are planned that can run on liquid gas.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2010 edited
     
    Why do you say that the Bloom box will make electricity cheaper? Do you have data showing that it is more fuel efficient than a large-scale thermoelectric plant?
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2010
     
    Posted By: AngusWhy do you say that the Bloom box will make electricity cheaper? Do you have data showing that it is more fuel efficient than a large-scale thermoelectric plant?
    Bloom claims projected operating costs of $0.08 / kWh. That is about 3X what conventional coal is today, and substantially more than nuclear or wind.