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    • CommentAuthorYAFFP
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2010
     
    I think the issue is that natural gas is available from waste and bio-mass (as well as CBM), and that if it is converted at the demand site you have cheap power and heating. Distributed power generation does not suffer from power line losses and such things as coal steaming will soon be priced upward due to carbon taxes etc.

    I am all for Bloom if they can get the cost down.

    Giant coal based power plants will have to be curtailed sooner or later.
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2010
     
    Coal particularly as used today is nasty stuff. The CO2 is the least of it.

    If Bloom can get their costs down and establish good reliability then I think they have a place in the world. Both points remain to be seen.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2010
     
    Posted By: joshsCoal particularly as used today is nasty stuff. The CO2 is the least of it.


    Indeed. It carries more radioactivity into the environment in normal operation than a nuclear plant of equivalent capacity.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2010
     
    Posted By: YAFFPI think the issue is that natural gas is available from waste and bio-mass


    Are you sure that methane from these sources is cheaper than natural gas after production and handling costs?
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      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2010 edited
     
    Inventions like the Bloom box will help to make electricity cheaper. And trucks are planned that can run on liquid gas.

    Like means improved, plus natural gas will (if competition is allowed free run ) become as cheap or even cheaper than coal (especially if a carbon tax is passed)

    Other sources of fuel should become cheaper too. See Technology review

    Increasing Yield from Gasification
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      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2010 edited
     
    @Angus
    Apologies if you have already read these.

    From Italy
    Electricity From Salty Water

    From Holland
    Reverse electrodialysis

    From Norway
    Norway plant opens

    From USA
    Ammonia, CO2
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2010
     
    @Trim
    Thanks. I had indeed seen many of them, but it was useful to have the others.
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      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2010
     
    I can't seem to find any news about Oasys after September last year but I did confirm to myself that they use heat to evaporate the NH3 and CO2 from the fluid using partial pressure and waste heat so it can desalinate seawater as well as producing power using a membrane and that they are using plastic membranes not the potentially more efficient glass ones or even graphAne or nanotubes. I wonder if the draw fluid can generate electricity directly like the Italian or dutch ones?
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2010
     
    I spoke to the new Oasys VP Technology recently, whom I knew from another context (not that he was too forthcoming). I think they are first focussing on desalination. The basic power technology seems to be PRO to be consistent with that, so they do have to do membrane development. And it's electromechanical generation.

    I have also spoken to the Italian and Dutch people, and there seem to be some synergies there. Europe appears to be pushing ahead on this technology. I too have wondered about graphene, since its atomic structure is almost perfect for salt osmosis. I haven't seen anything on it for this application, nor have I any idea how you would get a million square metres of the stuff, mounted to withstand a few hundred atmospheres of pressure.
    • CommentAuthorenginerd
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2010
     
    I was referring to his idea of using solar power to desalinate water during the day, and then using the potential created with this purer water to generate electricity during the night.

    That scenario is merely using the creation of fresh water as a storage system for the solar power generated. I suspect that there are better storage systems.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2010
     
    Posted By: enginerdI was referring to his idea of using solar power to desalinate water during the day, and then using the potential created with this purer water to generate electricity during the night.

    That scenario is merely using the creation of fresh water as a storage system for the solar power generated. I suspect that there are better storage systems.


    If you do the calculations it looks competitive, under certain circumstances. Don't forget - there are very few good storage systems.
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      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2010
     
    GraphAne not graphene the holes can in theory be varied in graphane as it is a mixture not just graphite. Of course costs have to come down on improved membranes if the technology is ever going to be viable. I seem to remember that the fast speed that liquids travel through nanotubes surprised scientists.
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2010
     
    Posted By: enginerdI was referring to his idea of using solar power to desalinate water during the day, and then using the potential created with this purer water to generate electricity during the night.

    That scenario is merely using the creation of fresh water as a storage system for the solar power generated. I suspect that there are better storage systems.
    There are indeed. The first problem is that unless you go to very exotic and expensive PV systems 20% is at the high end of the incident light to electricity conversion. Then you compound the conversion losses desalinating. A straight solar thermal to molten salt storage scheme is about as energy and cost efficient as anyone has been able to get.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2010
     
    @joshs
    To be clear - I didn't mean to imply that using PV to desalinate water would be a good way to do it. I meant that there are ways to desalinate water that can cut it.
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2010
     
    Fair enough. BTW if you want to desalinate w/ solar I think old fashioned thermally driven evaporation is likely more efficient than PV driven R/O.
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2010
     
    bump to restore after the children were put in their play pens
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      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2010
     
    I think old fashioned thermally driven evaporation is likely more efficient than PV driven R/O.

    Talk about strawmen where does PV driven R/O come in? Evaporating water takes a load of energy even under partial pressure compared to removing NH3 and CO2 so that it can be recycled as a concentrated draw fluid. It main purpose would be to desalinate seawater however freshwater that has been raised up by a membrane has loads of PE which would be silly not to make use of. Solar energy (if needed) would be used to warm the used draw fluid under partial pressure to drive off NH3 and CO2 so it can be reused to desalinate more seawater waste heat can also be used for this if available. The PE of raised water is one way of generating electricity, however the Dutch and Italians have invented separate devices that can use the different electrical states between fresh and saline water to produce electricity. More efficiency is needed know. Unfortunately I am to dumb to know if similar devices would work with ammonia type fluid and fresh water. However if a reason ever arose, than fresh water that has used up it PE could be "resalinated" in a Dutch or Italian device to produce more electricity.
    • CommentAuthorUtD_Grant
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2010
     
    Posted By: TrimHowever if a reason ever arose, than fresh water that has used up it PE could be "resalinated" in a Dutch or Italian device to produce more electricity.


    I think there are definite possibilities for recycling methane in a Dutch oven.
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2010
     
    Posted By: TrimI think old fashioned thermally driven evaporation is likely more efficient than PV driven R/O.

    Talk about strawmen where does PV driven R/O come in? Evaporating water takes a load of energy even under partial pressure compared to removing NH3 and CO2 so that it can be recycled as a concentrated draw fluid. It main purpose would be to desalinate seawater however freshwater that has been raised up by a membrane has loads of PE which would be silly not to make use of. Solar energy (if needed) would be used to warm the used draw fluid under partial pressure to drive off NH3 and CO2 so it can be reused to desalinate more seawater waste heat can also be used for this if available. The PE of raised water is one way of generating electricity, however the Dutch and Italians have invented separate devices that can use the different electrical states between fresh and saline water to produce electricity. More efficiency is needed know. Unfortunately I am to dumb to know if similar devices would work with ammonia type fluid and fresh water. However if a reason ever arose, than fresh water that has used up it PE could be "resalinated" in a Dutch or Italian device to produce more electricity.
    You want to poison estuaries with ammonium hydroxide do you?
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      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2010 edited
     
    I think there are definite possibilities for recycling methane in a Dutch oven.

    Well at least once. But NH3 and CO2 can be used over and over until the membranes need replacing, aye there's the rub.