Vanilla 1.1.9 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

    •  
      CommentAuthorsaner
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2009
     
    Posted By: couldbe
    Flew on Sean's dime. Of course it was more important. If my company had just suffered a public relations disaster, I would have to be an idiot as a manager to take time off to satisfy somebody's curiosity, no matter what I had promised earlier. It's known as prioritizing.


    As I recall, after the Kinetica public relations disaster, Sean's priority was to go to the pub. World class management there.

    "no matter what I had promised earlier" = liar.
    •  
      CommentAuthorcouldbe
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2009
     
    Posted By: rufus_firefly
    Even if doing so would do more to alleviate the PR disaster than any of the rest of what Sean did over the following weeks and months?


    It comes back to the investors and whether or not they still believe in the tech. Showing Dr. Mike an Orbo and having him proclaim that it was the darndest thing and he could not figure out why it just kept on spinning - well, that would have piqued the interest of the forum people, but Sean probably viewed and views the forum and its denizens with a mixture of amusement and contempt.

    So Sean, as a rational manager, would worry about what he should do to keep the investors happy, not what he should do to keep the forumites happy. And it looks like that worked, considering the additional barrels of money that were poured into the company after kinetica.

    What do you think has kept those investors so loyal? What do you think they have been shown over the past 4 years? Do you think it is flash presentations and oscilloscope traces?

    Do you think those millionaire investors, including a big-shot lawyer, are so naive, so unworldly, that they would be satisfied with that?
    •  
      CommentAuthorpcstru
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2009
     
    Posted By: couldbeAnd it looks like that worked, considering the additional barrels of money that were poured into the company after kinetica.


    Sean said that they would not take any more investment until after 'validation'. When asked where the additional money had come from he explained that it had been committed before they advertised for the jury. Presumably from your post, you think this was another lie?
    •  
      CommentAuthorThicket
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2009
     
    Posted By: couldbe What do you think has kept those investors so loyal? What do you think they have been shown over the past 4 years? Do you think it is flash presentations and oscilloscope traces?

    Do you think those millionaire investors, including a big-shot lawyer, are so naive, so unworldly, that they would be satisfied with that?


    Who says they're loyal. Most put in money years ago and can't get it back.

    I think they've been shown nothing over the past 4 years. Why would you think otherwise? The Jury was shown nothing, Dr. Mike was shown nothing, the public demo showed nothing.

    However much money the investors had, they have less after investing in Steorn.

    Are investors, like the lawyer, the veterinarian, the car dealership owner etc. naive? Absolutely yes. They're like you, except they have money.

    Are these investors unwordly? Therein lies their big weakness. Looking at their backgrounds, I'd say they were successful in their own professions. They have egos and believed that they were incapable of being taken in. The professionals amongst the investors know lots, but not about science. Depending on the individual, they know about business, law, medicine, accounting and other fields. They believed the charismatic Sean and gladly parted with their money. So despite their success and knowledge, they were naive and gullible.

    For a much better example of how rich and successful people were taken in by fraud, read up on Bernie Madoff. Heck, you couldn't invest in Madoff's pyramid scheme unless you were rich, successful and socially connected.
    •  
      CommentAuthormaryyugo
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2009 edited
     
    Exactly what KOT said better than I would've said it because I would've been tempted to insult Couldbe for the gullibility exhibited by the remarks.

    @Thicket
    I suspect Steorn is a minor issue with the investors and they are willing to let Sean run down his show all the way. Then, I think they will take legal action. I hope it will be criminal as well as civil because my thinking now is that the fraud has been deliberate. Or like Madhoff, maybe the business's early history was legitimate but it quickly degenerated into fraud.
  1.  
    I am always amazed at how the duped serve as the greatest apologists and in turn prop up the weakest of inveigling frameworks. Would not an investor who has more committed than a mere leap of faith not serve the master better by remaining tacit?
    •  
      CommentAuthorcouldbe
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2009
     
    Posted By: Thicket
    I think they've been shown nothing over the past 4 years. Why would you think otherwise?


    Because it beggars the imagination (mine, anyway) that they would put up with 4 years of being shown nothing. Their naivete could not extend to that length. They would have to have evidence that Steorn had something.


    They believed the charismatic Sean and gladly parted with their money. So despite their success and knowledge, they were naive and gullible.


    But not four years worth of gullible. No one who had the brains and personality to make a ton of money would quietly put up with 4 years of 'nothing' without taking action.



    For a much better example of how rich and successful people were taken in by fraud, read up on Bernie Madoff. Heck, you couldn't invest in Madoff's pyramid scheme unless you were rich, successful and socially connected.


    That is a poor example because those people saw themselves getting richer each year, at least according to the reports that Madoff sent them. Some of them even cashed out early enough to really become richer.

    The case with Steorn is one of the investors getting nothing. So far. But they have been shown enough to make them believe that Steorn has the True OU and that in the not too distant future they will be even filthier rich than they are now.
  2.  
    Posted By: couldbe
    Because it beggars the imagination (mine, anyway) that they would put up with 4 years of being shown nothing.


    So the investors have been show the full Monty and yet do not give pause to the outcome of the jury whereas it is inferred they saw nothing of the sort after two and half years.
    •  
      CommentAuthorcouldbe
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2009
     
    Posted By: Knuckles OToole
    Posted By: couldbe
    Because it beggars the imagination (mine, anyway) that they would put up with 4 years of being shown nothing.


    So the investors have been show the full Monty and yet do not give pause to the outcome of the jury whereas it is inferred they saw nothing of the sort after two and half years.


    Good point. Maybe it's a scam after all. Less than 10 weeks until we know.
  3.  
    Posted By: couldbeLess than 10 weeks until we know.


    I really hate to be the harbinger of bad news but reality does insist. I suspect we will see a cure for the common cold long before over unity.
    •  
      CommentAuthorThicket
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2009
     
    I doubt that there will be legal action from investors. The problem is their ego. In order to take legal action, they'd have to admit they were stupid enough to be scammed. Successful people seldom can bring themselves to admit that. They'll quietly write it off. Some will probably resist even thinking about their naivite.

    Small time, less sophisticated investors can and do bring legal action against fraudsters if there are enough of them. They are more angry than ego-centric.

    Although I'm not a lawyer, I'd have to wonder about how successful legal action would be. If Sean is delusional, not very successful I'd think. Fraud requires intent, and that's not easy to prove.

    To Couldbe. A couple of years ago, you said you would write Steorn off if some milestone wasn't achieved. (Can't remember which of the failed milestones, but it's on the Steorn forums). Despite the failure, you didn't change your position on Steorn. When I challenged you on it, you basically shrugged and said it didn't hurt to continue believing in the possibility that Steorn had something.

    My question to you now is, if nothing happens in 10 weeks, will you stop believing that Steorn may have something?
    •  
      CommentAuthorcouldbe
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2009
     
    Posted By: Thicket
    To Couldbe. A couple of years ago, you said you would write Steorn off if some milestone wasn't achieved. (Can't remember which of the failed milestones, but it's on the Steorn forums). Despite the failure, you didn't change your position on Steorn. When I challenged you on it, you basically shrugged and said it didn't hurt to continue believing in the possibility that Steorn had something.

    My question to you now is, if nothing happens in 10 weeks, will you stop believing that Steorn may have something?


    Yes. It was the kinetica demo, by the way.

    If Steorn have OU, they will have 10 backup orbos in 4 different configurations, or something like that. They will be, at this very moment, testing the bejesus out of them. There will be no glitch. They will show a self-powered, perpetually spinning gizmo that performs work. It will run and run for days. Elaborate cameras and timers will be set up to record the amazing event. There will be no delays, no excuses.

    After the kinetica fiasco, Sean's announcement that he'll demo an orbo before the end of the year backs him into a corner; and another non-performance would make even the most naive and egotistical investor have such enormous cognitive dissonance that the guy's head would explode if he did not finally demand his money back.

    It would also mean that I did not know what I was talking about, and that the the investors, the dumb bastards, have been led by the nose by 4 years of flash presentations and oscilloscope traces.

    If the demo doesn't take place, though I am confident it will, then it will be obvious, even to me, that the whole thing is a scam or hoax or social experiment, and I will look forward to the lawsuits and criminal charges, or the announcement that the experiment has concluded.
    •  
      CommentAuthorThicket
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2009
     
    That's reasonable. Let's see what, if anything, happens.
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuanten
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2009 edited
     
    I can remember a recent CRO or whatever saying their continued existence was relient on making up their orbo. It did not sound like at that time they had ANYTHING. I could have misread that though.

    And couldbe, he was not put into a corner. he could have given himself 6 more month. He did not, he put the date and stick to it saying it broke. Do you REALLY think they got something which broke and could not demo afterward ? Really ???? He could have provided a model to their own freaking jury. He did not. There is no evidence whatsoever he will demo anything but incompetence until the end 2009. And if he demo *ANYTHING* , the first things which will jump to my mind will be "Tiley-like fraud". *ONLY* if independent scientist can put their screwdriver to it, and confirm it in peer reviewed journal, I will be ready to start to think he has something. Anything else is a sham.


    WETA: God what an awful spelling. I am too tired to correct it all.
    •  
      CommentAuthorping1400
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2009
     
    Any demo, live, video, web-cam, with a spinning orby, would turn delusion into fraud.
    And that would be a real new development in the Stoern saga, more fun and more drama!
    •  
      CommentAuthorThicket
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2009
     
    Posted By: ping1400Any demo, live, video, web-cam, with a spinning orby, would turn delusion into fraud.
    And that would be a real new development in the Stoern saga, more fun and more drama!


    I totally agree. That's the hook. If Steorn comes with words, then it's more of the same nothing. Any actual demonstration of a 'working' model becomes fraud. It would be a dangerous step for Steorn to take.

    On the assumption that Sean is delusional, there will be nothing except perhaps words and excuses. The best that Steorn can do is more Ooooo's and Ahhhhh's from so-called independent scientists with non-live video of 'something'.
  4.  
    Posted By: ThicketAny actual demonstration of a 'working' model becomes fraud. It would be a dangerous step for Steorn to take


    If, as according to Couldbe' speculation, the investors have been shown a working device then the fraud has already been committed. If the investors have not been shown a working device then they are hanging their hopes on Sean, et al, says and that destroys Couldbe's theory that they are imminently savvy and have done all due diligence. If they have been shown a working model and cannot detect fraud then they are dupes.
    • CommentAuthornova
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2009 edited
     
    .
    •  
      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2009
     
    Here in Canada there are some who still remember the "remittance men". The younger useless sons of wealth in the mother country sent out to make their way in the new world. But they never really had to because they got their monthly remittance from home. It became a term for a kind of agricultural or farming dilettante. 

    Now I'm not drawing any parallels but ...
    •  
      CommentAuthoraber0der
    • CommentTimeOct 23rd 2009
     
    Posted By: ping1400Any demo, live, video, web-cam, with a spinning orby, would turn delusion into fraud.
    And that would be a real new development in the Stoern saga, more fun and more drama!


    That's why Sean said that if they were in the business of faking things, there would have been a spinning Orob on display at the Kinteica demo. But who knows, maybe they are more desperate now and try something new.
    I expect that they'll demo their mismeasurement equipment and some testimonials from independent parties.