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  1.  
    (Seems like that other thread is a bit OT, so reposting here. Maybe someone will bother to comment.)

    Crude graphic illustration of one possible way to "flip" the magnet of a "Magnetically Assisted Pendulum".
    http://s285.photobucket.com/albums/ll48/overconfident/Pendulum/?action=view¤t=PenduFlip.gif

    Looking at edge of the disc rotor. The gray ball is a nonmagnetic weight sufficient to overcome the magnetic force from the stator and allow the rotor magnet to flip.

    As the pendulum swings above 90 degrees, the weight hits the triangular stop and is deflected to one side. The momentum imparted plus the weight allow the magnet to flip 180 degrees in preparation for the return swing, where it will again swing past 90 degrees and the process can be repeated.

    Feedback is welcome.
  2.  
    Even though I think the "Magnetically Assisted Pendulum" is interesting, and may have some potential, I have to admit I disagree with some of Vibrator's wild conjectures.

    My take on this is just a bit different. I see all these forces and accelerations as having a self-symmetry, where everything is internally consistent and obeys CoE. But I have this nagging feeling the interactions of different forces or accelerations with each other may provide some asymmetry, and that it may be possible to exploit that asymmetry.

    In this case, the forces at play are: Gravity, Magnetic Repulsion, Magnetic Attraction, and Angular Momentum (and friction, of course). I know the consensus is that it all averages out and no gain is possible. And that may very well be true, but these funny hallucinations in my head keep telling me different. Same goes for WhipMag (which is considerably more than what Al built and demonstrated).
    •  
      CommentAuthorNoSideSam
    • CommentTimeOct 23rd 2009
     
    First off, I’d like to say that I don’t think that you can win this game. Any GPE/KE you gain at the end of the pendulum swing will never be enough to allow you to flip the magnet from attraction to repulsion, even with the added weight. But that said, I think it is good to do experiments for yourself to get a feel for how CoE works in practice.

    In looking at your diagram one thing that came to my mind is that you would need to prevent the magnet from swiveling freely near the bottom portion of the swing. The interactions between the magnets will be strong there and some type of locking mechanism would be needed.

    Good luck.
    •  
      CommentAuthoraber0der
    • CommentTimeOct 23rd 2009 edited
     
    IMHO the best way to understand the magical properties of the penduSMOT would be to observe it closely and develop models that could describe and predict its behavior.
  3.  
    Posted By: NoSideSam
    In looking at your diagram one thing that came to my mind is that you would need to prevent the magnet from swiveling freely near the bottom portion of the swing. The interactions between the magnets will be strong there and some type of locking mechanism would be needed.


    Agreed. I was just trying to keep the drawings simple (and simple to draw). I have some ideas about how to lock it in position when the flip is complete, but haven't got it fully worked out yet.
  4.  
    Posted By: aber0derIMHO the best way to understand magical properties of the penduSMOT would be to observe it closely and develop models that could describe and predict its behavior.


    I don't have the time right now or the math skills or capable simulation software to do that at the moment. I wish I did.
    •  
      CommentAuthorGrimer
    • CommentTimeOct 23rd 2009
     
    I find the diagrams difficult to understand. You could at least label them Front Elevation, Side Elevation, Plan or whatever. Maybe it's because I'm jumping in at the deep end and haven't read the earlier chapters.
  5.  
  6.  
    What keeps the magnet in the Flipped position during the return swing ? unless it is perfectly ballanced it would want to return to it's lowest eneregy state .
    Frank if you think these diagrams are confusing you ought to look at the VP thread diagrams :)
  7.  
    Posted By: Terry LingleWhat keeps the magnet in the Flipped position during the return swing ? unless it is perfectly ballanced it would want to return to it's lowest eneregy state .
    Frank if you think these diagrams are confusing you ought to look at the VP thread diagrams :)


    See the comment from NoSideSam above and my reply.

    I envision a locking mechanism that is cocked by gravity on the upswing so that when the magnet is flipped, it will be latched into the repulsive orientation. It could be a nonmagnetic sleeve around the magnet or some sort of unbalanced trip lever latch or detent on the wheel (pendulum).

    Maintaining the required orientation is only an issue on the downswing. On the upswing, magnetic attraction will help maintain the proper relationship, as long as the weight attached to the end of the magnet isn't heavier than it needs to be.
    •  
      CommentAuthorGrimer
    • CommentTimeOct 23rd 2009 edited
     
    Posted By: Terry LingleWhat keeps the magnet in the Flipped position during the return swing ? unless it is perfectly ballanced it would want to return to it's lowest eneregy state .
    Frank if you think these diagrams are confusing you ought to look at the VP thread diagrams :)


    Rubbish. My diagrams are excellent.
    They're a damn sight better than your spelling.
  8.  
    That is your opinion Frank Then again it might be the gas has affected you :). Your diagrams are better than Mylow's were but then you understood how his device worked did'n't you.
    •  
      CommentAuthorGrimer
    • CommentTimeOct 23rd 2009 edited
     
    I did indeed. When you have magnets in that orientation the cube law come into play. And there are possibly ways of overcoming the sticky spot without cheating.

    Edit: Not my opinion, it's a fact. Two spelling errors in three lines! Disgraceful.
  9.  
    Two social gaffes in three posts :)
    • CommentAuthorVibrator
    • CommentTimeOct 27th 2009 edited
     
    ...Vibrator's wild conjectures.


    Like E=FD?

    If that's wild conjecture i don't know why you're even trying to do anything else with it. The ONLY "asymmetry" that matters is that between input and output energy, ie. the integral of force and distance.

    By which measure the damn thing's OU. At least according to the standard energy definition. AFAIC the best way to use it is just tune it to get a spinner - log the performance results from small angle and airgap adjustments, add more stators using the same tuning technique, Bob's yer proverbial. No additional moving parts should be necessary.
    •  
      CommentAuthorNoSideSam
    • CommentTimeOct 27th 2009
     
    Posted By: Vibrator AFAIC the best way to use it is just tune it to get a spinner - ...

    Let us know when you have it working.
  10.  
    Posted By: Vibrator
    ...Vibrator's wild conjectures.


    Like E=FD?

    If that's wild conjecture i don't know why you're even trying to do anything else with it. The ONLY "asymmetry" that matters is that between input and output energy, ie. the integral of force and distance.

    By which measure the damn thing's OU. At least according to the standard energy definition. AFAIC the best way to use it is just tune it to get a spinner - log the performance results from small angle and airgap adjustments, add more stators using the same tuning technique, Bob's yer proverbial. No additional moving parts should be necessary.


    If the combination of forces causes the BDC to shift, then the work function and CoE will still hold ... at least for the default pendular behavior. The only possible way I can see to get any gain out of this thing is to somehow interfere with the natural behavior by decoupling the forces at an opportune moment ... something like using the apparent gain of GPE to flip the magnet for the return swing.
    • CommentAuthorBigOilRep
    • CommentTimeOct 28th 2009
     

    The only possible way I can see to get any gain out of this thing is to somehow interfere with the natural behavior by decoupling the forces at an opportune moment ...

    Unless you are a god then I can't see how you will change the way nature operates by pissing around with magnets, catches, pendulums, shielding blah blah
    • CommentAuthorVibrator
    • CommentTimeOct 28th 2009
     
    Posted By: NoSideSam
    Posted By: VibratorAFAIC the best way to use it is just tune it to get a spinner - ...

    Let us know when you have it working.
    I'm not Harvey, and it's already working - as shown in the vid. I tried to replicate the result using old junk, and couldn't get it. Mine obeyed CoE.

    I've nothing invested in it anyway - it's just a fun distraction; fun, because it's always entertaining, in an cringeworthy kind of way, to watch you clueless religious types shamelessly flaunt their total ignorance and ineptitude in basic physics when faced with a friggin breakthrough result, and a distraction in as much as none of this really matters, Steorn's refined the effect to an art, whereafter this result will just be a footnote in the history books, if that.

    So it's "working" alright. More to the point, it's working too much, not least in demonstrating the bungling incompetence of what passes for physics awareness round here.
    • CommentAuthorBigOilRep
    • CommentTimeOct 28th 2009 edited
     
    Posted By: Vibrator
    Posted By: NoSideSam
    Posted By: VibratorAFAIC the best way to use it is just tune it to get a spinner - ...

    Let us know when you have it working.
    I'm not Harvey, and it'salreadyworking

    Harvey should publish and get his Nobel prize speech sorted then. For some reason they don't award science prizes for youtube videos - I've no idea why.

    Any idea why Harvey hasn't closed the loop yet? Should be trivial for a skilled tinkerer like him.

    For some reason SMOT makers always seem to wave their hands around saying closing the loop is a distraction, and they have already proved their point. Harvey is just another in a long line.


    - as shown in the vid. I tried to replicate the result using old junk, and couldn't get it. Mine obeyed CoE.

    No shit.