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      CommentAuthormrflora
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009
     
  1.  
    "it seems quite likely that it's all a load of cobblers"

    A must read (linked in the above article):
    http://www.assassinationscience.com/johncostella/shawyerfraud.pdf
    (a 4-page refutation of Shawyer's "theory")
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      CommentAuthormrflora
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009
     
    A better Wired article. Also mentions the Chinese claim to have duplicated Shawyer's results.

    Regards,
    M.R.F.
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      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009
     
    Thanks very much for the news mrflora I hadn't spotted it yet, it will be quite a paradigm shift if it works, which I really hope for. No reaction mass maybe gives us the stars.
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      CommentAuthorGrimer
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009
     
    It's not anti-grav. He's altering the Beta-atmosphere pressure.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009
     
    Posted By: GrimerIt's not anti-grav. He's altering the Beta-atmosphere pressure.


    Are you saying the Beta- atmosphere couples to bosons as well? Is nothing safe?
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      CommentAuthorGrimer
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009
     
    It certainly couples to bosoms.
  2.  
    Posted By: GrimerIt's not anti-grav. He's altering the Beta-atmosphere pressure.


    What he's doing is doing GCSE level calculations entirely wrong as can be seen in the paper analyzing them above. Mix this with a bit of fraud and there's your 'anti grav' device.

    Is there any kind of free energy related bullshit that doesn't fit into your beta atmosphere theory?
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      CommentAuthorGrimer
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009
     
    Posted By: hairykrishna
    Posted By: GrimerIt's not anti-grav. He's altering the Beta-atmosphere pressure.


    What he's doing is doing GCSE level calculations entirely wrong as can be seen in the paper analyzing them above. Mix this with a bit of fraud and there's your 'anti grav' device.

    Is there any kind of free energy related bullshit that doesn't fit into your beta atmosphere theory?

    Yes. The stuff that fits into the Gamma- and Delta- theory. The trouble with Iterative Hierarchical Mechanics is that once one has solve something at one level one has solved it at all levels. It's like finding the general equation for an infinite series. There is a whole hierachy of atmospheres each enveloping the previous one. It is a reflection of the self similarity of natural systems of which fractal patterns are one aspect. It means that not only is space full, it is positively stuffed like Chinese boxes or Russian dolls.
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      CommentAuthorGrimer
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009
     
    mrflora:The Emdrive's time has come

    Regards,
    M.R.F.
    < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmDrive >

    Could be giving a Beta-atmosphere density gradient within the "specially-shaped, fully-enclosed tapering resonator cavity"

    Can one obtain the same effect within the same cavity using sound and the Alpha-atmosphere, I wonder. I suspect you can. If so, that is some pretty good evidence for the existence of the Beta-atmosphere and a way of estimating its pressure.
  3.  
    Have you read the paper Al linked to above?
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      CommentAuthorcouldbe
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009
     
    Posted By: hairykrishnaHave you read the paper Al linked to above?


    I read it with enjoyment, even though understanding only parts of it:

    'scam', 'pseudo-scientific babble', 'pseudo-scientific hodge-podge', 'rubbish'

    Shawyer had managed to extract an obscene amount of money from the UK government to fund his ‘research’.

    a charlatan who had defrauded a government agency to get his hands on taxpayers’ hard-earned
    money

    Shawyer’s scam drive

    Shawyer’s ‘electromagnetic relativity drive’ is a fraud
  4.  
    Posted By: couldbe
    Posted By: hairykrishnaHave you read the paper Al linked to above?


    I read it with enjoyment, even though understanding only parts of it:

    'scam', 'pseudo-scientific babble', 'pseudo-scientific hodge-podge', 'rubbish'

    Shawyer had managed to extract an obscene amount of money from the UK government to fund his ‘research’.

    a charlatan who had defrauded a government agency to get his hands on taxpayers’ hard-earned
    money

    Shawyer’s scam drive

    Shawyer’s ‘electromagnetic relativity drive’ is a fraud


    The important part is the analysis of momentum transfer. Shawyer's geometry is wrong. Therefore, if his device does produce thrust, it can't be doing it in the way his theory predicts.

    The stuff about "scam" and "fraud" is probably just the reviewer's considered opinion. As it is mine, with the addition of "possible delusion".

    In addition, Shawyer's experiments are so poorly controlled that there are a number of ways an artifactual thrust may be experienced in this kind of a device.
    Especially when high voltages and temperature changes are in the mix.
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      CommentAuthorDerrickA
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009
     
    I agree that Shawyers experiments could certainly be better. For starters, this experiment should be be really be conducted in a big ass vacuum chamber. Nevertheless, what intrigues me about the EM drive is that its shares some key characteristics with a device that actually does work, namely, an acoustic refrigerator. Acoustic fridges work by pumping sound waves into a tapered cavity. One end gets hot, the other gets cold. While an acoustic fridge may be non intuitive, driving propulsion in a medium by exploiting thermal differences is well understood. The billion dollar question is: What happens in a tapered tube when you swap the sound waves in an air medium, with electromagnetic waves in a 'space' medium? Will 'space' expand at one end and contract at the other? Of course, the answer could well be 'pseudo-scientific hodge-podge', 'rubbish', but then again, it could be the greatest thing for transportation since the wheel. Considering Shawyers prototype is little more than a microwave oven, with a special semi conical cavity instead of the food compartment, you would think it wouldn't take too long for the dust of contention to settle. Just mind your fingers around the 4000 volt transformer and capacitor.
    • CommentAuthornova
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2009 edited
     
    Posted By: GrimerIt's not anti-grav. He's altering the Beta-atmosphere pressure.

    Is that the same Beta that ran the mylow motor or was it the Whipmag?
    Without your input it would not be possible to believe that these things really work.
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      CommentAuthorGrimer
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2009
     
    Posted By: DerrickAI agree that Shawyers experiments could certainly be better. For starters, this experiment should be be really be conducted in a big ass vacuum chamber. Nevertheless, what intrigues me about the EM drive is that its shares some key characteristics with a device that actually does work, namely, an acoustic refrigerator. Acoustic fridges work by pumping sound waves into a tapered cavity. One end gets hot, the other gets cold. While an acoustic fridge may be non intuitive, driving propulsion in a medium by exploiting thermal differences is well understood. The billion dollar question is: What happens in a tapered tube when you swap the sound waves in an air medium, with electromagnetic waves in a 'space' medium? Will 'space' expand at one end and contract at the other? Of course, the answer could well be 'pseudo-scientific hodge-podge', 'rubbish', but then again, it could be the greatest thing for transportation since the wheel. Considering Shawyers prototype is little more than a microwave oven, with a special semi conical cavity instead of the food compartment, you would think it wouldn't take too long for the dust of contention to settle. Just mind your fingers around the 4000 volt transformer and capacitor.

    Thanks for that info on the acoustic fridge. You seem to be half way to understanding why the device works. I'm sure that if you had appreciated the existence of the Beta-atmosphere as I do you would have little doubt that the device does work as claimed.

    I wonder if one could make something similar using carbon nano tubes which are closed with a hemispherical buckyball at one end and open at the other. This would give thrust from the unbalanced Casimir force and not require any extra energy.
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2009
     
    Posted By: GrimerIt's not anti-grav. He's altering the Beta-atmosphere pressure.
    Frank are you bent on embarrassing yourself yet again by claiming your crackpot universal atmosphere ideas account for how another unworkable device is supposed to work? Shawyer's claims violate conservation of momentum. It's hard to get more crackpot than that.
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      CommentAuthorQuanten
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2009 edited
     
    Posted By: joshs
    Posted By: GrimerIt's not anti-grav. He's altering the Beta-atmosphere pressure.
    Frank are you bent on embarrassing yourself yet again by claiming your crackpot universal atmosphere ideas account for how another unworkable device is supposed to work? Shawyer's claims violate conservation of momentum. It's hard to get more crackpot than that.


    I dunnop. It is a question of taste. On what is the most crackpot, I am split between homeopathy, conservation of momentum violation, COE violation, or jsut the plain old classical religion. So many crackpoterry that it is difficult to tell what is more nuts than the other....
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2009
     
    Quanten, no worries. I am sure Frank can come up with a turtles all the way down explanation for how his Greek letter atmosphere ideas explain all of the above.
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      CommentAuthorDerrickA
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2009 edited
     
    Posted By: GrimerI'm sure that if you had appreciated the existence of the Beta-atmosphere as I do you would have little doubt that the device does work as claimed.


    Yes Frank, a tragic, tragic, loss on my part....If only there was a standard accepted definition of the term "Beta-atmosphere". While I suspect this is your own (Frankmospheric?) term for Vacuum energy, only you seem to know for sure. As for the EM drive, I was speculating, (as I did ten over years ago with an uncle who worked for Marconi). Of course, you realize that for the EM drive to work, poor old Lorentz would have to roll in his grave.