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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2019
     
    Yup. Around here we have a saying:"You can always tell a Yankee, but you can't tell him much."
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      CommentAuthorDuracell
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2019
     
    Posted By: maryyugoSome cultures are simply more violent than others.
    Yes, the cultures suffering from the sorts of socioeconomic problems that arise from grotesque wealth and income inequality. Is there some Amendment to the US Constitution protecting the rights of super wealthy USAn to avoid taxation as they increase their wealth?
    • CommentAuthorBigOilRep
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2019 edited
     
    Posted By: maryyugoWhile all are much better than nothing or third world medicine, they suck compared to the best one can get here

    Citations required, including outcome statistics.
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    Start with worker cooperatives, maybe
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      CommentAuthorDuracell
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2019 edited
     
    Posted By: maryyugo... but not to self defense weapons ...
    This right here is at the heart of your problem. To the rest of us, you seem to have normalised something very abnormal here.

    The best way I can attempt to explain it to you is to take an example and replace the lethal weapons that you seem to have normalised with less lethal weaponry that you have not normalised.

    So, for example, the notion of a civilian walking around a busy grocery store or public concert while carrying a hand-axe, or a machete, or a samurai sword for self defense purposes seem ludicrous and absurd, doesn't it? You rightly wouldn't tolerate it and you wouldn't perceive attempts to prevent it from happening to be controversial or an infringement of your rights. This is because you have not yet normalised hand-axes, machetes or samurai swords in the same way that you have normalised guns.

    Guns are much more lethal and dangerous than hand-axes, machetes and samurai swords, yet the notion of people in crowded public areas "packing heat" for self defense purposes seems perfectly normal and reasonable to you. This, more than anything else, separates you from the rest of us.

    To the rest of us the notion of civilians in crowded public areas arming themselves with any lethal weaponry is abhorrent, ludicrous and absurd, regardless of whether the lethal weaponry in question consists of guns, hand-axes, machetes, samurai swords, bazookas, grenades, rocket launchers, suicide bombing vests, tanks, helicopter gunships or tactical nuclear weapons!

    We have outsourced the work of bringing lethal force to bear where necessary in order to protect us from criminals to our police and to our other law enforcement agencies. In return, when our police and our other law enforcement agencies are dealing with trouble, they can be reasonably confident that anyone else besides them who has armed themselves with lethal weaponry is the threat that needs to dealt with, and they generally do not need to worry about dangers to the public and to them arising from other armed members of the public "defending themselves" or "helping" them.
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      CommentAuthorDuracell
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2019 edited
     
    Posted By: maryyugoYou have no idea (or maybe you do) how many people in the US, otherwise law abiding and honest people, pay no tax and work unofficially as "private contractors" and never declare their income or only declare a portion. It's epidemic. Barters too escape taxation as often as not.
    Yes, this is a major problem. But the problem is not that these workers are not paying their fair share of taxes - the impact of their nickel and dime tax evasion to your public finances is negligible compared to the billion dollar tax avoidance schemes of which your wealthiest citizens and corporations take advantage. The real problem here is how these workers are being ruthlessly and horrifically exploited by those very same wealthy citizens and corporations who can treat them even worse and even more shabbily than they would treat their employees by forcing them to pretend that they are self employed and engaging them as "private contractors" instead of as employees.
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      CommentAuthormaryyugo
    • CommentTimeSep 20th 2019
     
    Guns are much more lethal and dangerous than hand-axes, machetes and samurai swords, yet the notion of people in crowded public areas "packing heat" for self defense purposes seems perfectly normal and reasonable to you. This, more than anything else, separates you from the rest of us.


    I wasn't clear. Not open or concealed carry anywhere-- I meant home defense and of course hunting. The only one I really care about personally is home defense. I've been threatened and assaulted and the police try hard but it often takes too long. The time I was assaulted, last year, the guy was crazy and didn't do any serious harm except to my cell phone. But they used five cops to subdue him. Not sure if I would have shot him had I been armed and alone but it's possible. It was a very scary situation. I carry pepper spray now (pepper spray + CS, law enforcement grade) on my night time walks. Pity one has to.

    Anyway, nobody is going to take ordinary guns from US citizens. It will be hard enough to regulate weapons of war and those with large magazines and high velocity projectiles.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeSep 20th 2019 edited
     
    Posted By: maryyugonobody is going to take ordinary guns from US citizens.


    It doesn't seem to occur to you that this idea actually is the doom of your society.
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      CommentAuthorDuracell
    • CommentTimeSep 20th 2019
     
    Posted By: maryyugo... nobody is going to take ordinary guns from US citizens.
    A gun is an extraordinary and lethal weapon. There is no such thing as an ordinary gun and there is nothing ordinary about frightened civilians so lacking in confidence in their society, their police and their law enforcement agencies that they feel obliged and compelled to arm themselves with guns in order to try to defend themselves from criminals and from each other.
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    But the gun is actually the quintessence of human behaviour, of human-ness. We evolved our big brains for a number of reasons but one really important one is the ability to make the computations necessary to hit a prey animal with a thrown rock or stick. In other words we are human because we kill things with projectiles. And in fact we are human because we kill _other humans_ with rocks and sticks. What could be more natural, more human, than to make tools for killing with projectiles? What could be more important to kill, than another human who is trying to steal your (food, cattle, woman, territory) and who is willing and able to throw enough rocks at you to succeed?
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeSep 20th 2019
     
    It was considered unmanly to use projectile weapons in the middle ages. Proper people killed each other with swords and clubs. Archery was something the peasants were drafted in to do. In the days of duelling, sword duels were more respectable than pistol duels. So I can't buy your thesis - killing is an essential human behaviour perhaps, but methods are left to the user.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeSep 20th 2019
     
    Posted By: Angus
    Posted By: maryyugonobody is going to take ordinary guns from US citizens.


    It doesn't seem to occur to you that this idea actually is the doom of your society.


    I am quoting myself to add a bit of explanation.

    I mean that literally. It isn't the guns per se that are the doom, it is the idea that they cannot be taken away.
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      CommentAuthorDuracell
    • CommentTimeSep 20th 2019 edited
     
    Posted By: alsetalokinBut the gun is actually the quintessence of human behaviour, of human-ness. We evolved our big brains for a number of reasons but one really important one is the ability to make the computations necessary to hit a prey animal with a thrown rock or stick. In other words we are human because we kill things with projectiles. And in fact we are human because we kill _other humans_ with rocks and sticks. What could be more natural, more human, than to make tools for killing with projectiles? What could be more important to kill, than another human who is trying to steal your (food, cattle, woman, territory) and who is willing and able to throw enough rocks at you to succeed?
    Perhaps, but if that is indeed the case, then that subsequently evolved into communities, and eventually into civilisations, in which the individual civilians agreed to set aside and pool their own personal caches of lethal resources, and outsource the work of wielding them on their behalves, so that their communities / civilisations would be able to extend any potential protections and benefits that might be derived from the possession of such lethal weaponry to the entire community / civilisation as a public service to be wielded for their collective benefit and protection, rather than for individual advantage.

    While exceptions can and should get made for some activities that do involve wielding guns either defensively or offensively against other human beings (such as hunting, other field sports and pest / vermin control on farms, etc.), aside from these few obvious exceptions there is no such thing as an “ordinary gun” in civilian hands in exactly the same sense that there is no such thing as an “ordinary battle axe” or an “ordinary sword” or an “ordinary halberd” in civilian hands.
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    If you believe a worthwhile society needs guns in the hands of private citizens, you are batshit fucking insane.
    • CommentAuthorAsterix
    • CommentTimeSep 20th 2019
     
    The problem is that USAns have grown to be paranoid about a so-called "nanny state". You know, "if I want to play Russian roulette with all chambers loaded, it's my business, not the government's".

    Rugged individualism--a false notion ingrained deeply into the American consciousness. Of course, it's a false notion, but the idea of the individual and guns to protect the individual seems rife.

    One of the few times that USAns have put aside the notion of individualism has been during major wars and during extreme economic depressions.

    I suggest that few Americans understand the Ben Franklin quotation: "We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."