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      CommentAuthorping1400
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2021
     
    USA was very close to losing democracy. And half of the pop supports it.
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    45% of Yanks are batshit insane.
    • CommentAuthorAsterix
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2021 edited
     
    If you want to have a popular (in the sense of the public calling the shots), you also have to have an educational system to back that up. Otherwise, you get a race to the bottom with idiocy and selfish motives.

    The collapse starts small; such as ijits throwing trash out of their vehicles' windows. That's open hostility to the common good--yet it happens on regular basis with no one so much as blinking an eye. At the upper end, it's corporate looting; screw the public--what's in it for me? Anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers...the list just goes on and on.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2021
     
    Democracy is incompatible with free market capitalism. We are watching a demonstration.
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      CommentAuthorpcstru
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2021
     
    Posted By: AngusDemocracy is incompatible with free market capitalism. We are watching a demonstration.

    Well spotted. Top Marx.
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    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/03/donald-trump-memo-election-corrupt-justice-department

    Why this scumbag is not locked up blows my mind. My Yank acquaintances tell me that "justice is slow". I usually start talking about Guy Fawkes at that point.
    • CommentAuthorBigOilRep
    • CommentTimeAug 3rd 2021
     
    Posted By: AngusDemocracy is incompatible with free market capitalism. We are watching a demonstration.

    So what is it compatible with? Seems to me the only democratic states are also the ones with free markets. Yes, democracy needs to mitigate and control the worst excesses of capitalism, including it's short termism, but what other system even works with democracy?

    In fact what other system even works? State controlled markets are total disaster, every single time.
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      CommentAuthorping1400
    • CommentTimeAug 3rd 2021
     
    Angus was trolling
    • CommentAuthorloreman
    • CommentTimeAug 3rd 2021
     
    Posted By: BigOilRep
    Posted By: AngusDemocracy is incompatible with free market capitalism. We are watching a demonstration.

    So what is it compatible with? Seems to me the only democratic states are also the ones with free markets. Yes, democracy needs to mitigate and control the worst excesses of capitalism, including it's short termism, but what other system even works with democracy?

    In fact what other system even works? State controlled markets are total disaster, every single time.


    What would enlighten Capitalism a great deal would be curbing the worst excesses of the marketers. I think that one of the things that has gone wrong in America is several decades of shouting at the general populace that they are wonderful individuals who are the most important beings on the planet and deserve to have that one more exciting thing to live a perfectly fulfilled life. The insides of a great number of those peoples' heads have become like sewers as a result.
    • CommentAuthorAsterix
    • CommentTimeAug 3rd 2021
     
    That's true--sometimes the juxtaposition of commercial content is laughable. Yesterday I viewed a single commercial break, where, in succession, commercials for McDonalds, a Crohn's Disease Remedy, Funeral insurance and the local Crematory were aired. Apparently, the public is insensitive to this sort of thing now.
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      CommentAuthoraber0der
    • CommentTimeAug 3rd 2021
     
    A strictly regulated 'free market capitalism' certainly works better than a rampantly corrupt centralized economy.

    Could a strictly regulated centralized economy work even better?
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      CommentAuthorpcstru
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2021
     
    Posted By: BigOilRepIn fact what other system even works? State controlled markets are total disaster, every single time.


    China looking really bad...
    • CommentAuthorBigOilRep
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2021 edited
     
    Posted By: pcstru
    Posted By: BigOilRepIn fact what other system even works? State controlled markets are total disaster, every single time.


    China looking really bad...

    When China had largely state controlled markets it had mass malnutrition, now it has largely free markets, it doesn't. State control led to many disasters.

    Are you suggesting this happened because the state took more control of its markets?



    China is authoritarian capitalism, not communism.

    And yeah, China is looking "really bad" in many ways. It now has more wealth inequality than Western nations as well as a lack of rule of law, freedom of expression, democracy yadda yadda yadda

    Anyway, are you suggesting that as an improved system for the UK? You'd like to see Boris do a Xi and assume dictatorial powers?
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      CommentAuthorpcstru
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2021 edited
     
    Posted By: BigOilRep
    Posted By: pcstru
    Posted By: BigOilRepIn fact what other system even works? State controlled markets are total disaster, every single time.


    Anyway, are you suggesting that as an improved system for the UK? You'd like to see Boris do a Xi and assume dictatorial powers?



    No. I am saying they are state controlled, not "free markets". That the state allows some 'freedom' in commerce doesn't make them free markets. Their economic activity is state planned and controlled.

    Also, in terms of failure; has any state control (absent of external interference intended to inflict economic damage) led to a simmilar magnitude of economic cost of (say) the banking crisis?
    • CommentAuthorBigOilRep
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2021 edited
     
    Posted By: pcstru
    No. I am saying they are state controlled, not "free markets". That the state allows some 'freedom' in commerce doesn't make them free markets. Their economic activity is state planned and controlled.

    Only at the the very, very broadest level. Nobody is telling factories how many fridges or mobile phones they need to make that week or what the price of rice will be next week. Or how filthy rich you can make yourself - as long as you don't say the wrong things about the government, of course.


    Also, in terms of failure; has any state control (absent of external interference intended to inflict economic damage) led to a simmilar magnitude of economic cost of (say) the banking crisis?

    You mean recently? Or do I need to point you to the disaster after disaster the Chinese state inflicted on its people while it did have full control of the economy? They make the western banking crisis look like a barely noticeable blip. People starved in their millions.

    All this of course ignores my question - do you think this is a good alternative system for the UK? Would you like Boris to become our very own Xi and take dictatorial powers over our economy (and everything else)?
    • CommentAuthorAsterix
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2021
     
    Let 'em do what they want, just make sure that they don't evade taxation.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeAug 5th 2021 edited
     
    Posted By: ping1400Angus was trolling


    Was not.

    It was the "free" part of the statement that was the key. Markets have to be regulated or the wealthy take all and the rest have no effective power, as Pinketty (most recently) explained. It's happening now in the USA.
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      CommentAuthorping1400
    • CommentTimeAug 5th 2021 edited
     
    Agree.

    To remain free, a market requires rules and a regulator. The rules should focus on limiting obstructions for market entry, incentives for competition and protection against (natural) monopolies (maximization of social welfare of the society). The lawmakers should also be aware the world evolves and the market rules should evolve as well. Else there is the risk of overregulation, where technological or commercial innovations are frustrated.

    The regulator has two tasks:
    1) make sure the market rules are respected by all participants
    2) make sure the market remains a level playing field and act on occurrence of monopolies or abuse of market power
    • CommentAuthorloreman
    • CommentTimeAug 5th 2021
     
    There should also be proscription of false information about products and services-that’s worked quite well over a number of years down here.
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      CommentAuthorpcstru
    • CommentTimeAug 5th 2021
     
    Posted By: BigOilRep
    Posted By: pcstru
    No. I am saying they are state controlled, not "free markets". That the state allows some 'freedom' in commerce doesn't make them free markets. Their economic activity is state planned and controlled.

    Only at the the very, very broadest level. Nobody is telling factories how many fridges or mobile phones they need to make that week or what the price of rice will be next week. Or how filthy rich you can make yourself - as long as you don't say the wrong things about the government, of course.

    The party apparatus in China is such that no one sets up a factory without permission. No one manufactures Fridges or anything without permission. There is no 'free' competition, it is all regulated by the party at local, regional and national level. If what you are doing will interfere with someone else's 'business', you need to hope they pay less in bribes to someone lower down the chain that you do.



    Also, in terms of failure; has any state control (absent of external interference intended to inflict economic damage) led to a simmilar magnitude of economic cost of (say) the banking crisis?

    You mean recently? Or do I need to point you to the disaster after disaster the Chinese state inflicted on its people while it did have full control of the economy? They make the western banking crisis look like a barely noticeable blip. People starved in their millions.

    Starving is not the same as economic damage from 'free market capitalism', particularly when it is imposed by authoritarians like Mao or Churchill to deliver 'cultural' change. People starve in the UK today. Millions starve around the world who could be fed.

    My point is simply that no state run industry or enterprise has ever managed to rack up losses equivalent to the banking crisis. A decade and a half down the road, we are still paying the price of that.


    All this of course ignores my question - do you think this is a good alternative system for the UK? Would you like Boris to become our very own Xi and take dictatorial powers over our economy (and everything else)?


    How exactly do you think an answer would materially affect your statement :

    "In fact what other system even works? State controlled markets are total disaster, every single time"

    and my pointing out that your statement seems falsified by the existence of China, an authoritarian, undemocratic regime with a world class economy.