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      CommentAuthoraber0der
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2020
     
    Gottseidank.
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      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeJul 15th 2020
     
    Superstrata launches world’s first bespoke 3D-printed E-bicycle.

    https://www.theengineer.co.uk/superstrata-bespoke-3d-printed-bike/
    • CommentAuthorAsterix
    • CommentTimeJul 15th 2020
     
    When such a bicycle is damaged, what does one do? Throw it away and print another?
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    Printing money is probably useful too
    • CommentAuthorBigOilRep
    • CommentTimeJul 15th 2020
     
    Posted By: AsterixWhen such a bicycle is damaged, what does one do?

    Not sure I see the difference from a conventional carbon frame in that respect?
    • CommentAuthorAsterix
    • CommentTimeJul 15th 2020 edited
     
    Brazed double-butted steel is still the best all-around frame material. It can be repaired or modified easily.

    While a carbon-fiber (or Kevlar) frame may be somewhat lighter, it has no benefit for the less-than-professional rider.

    cf "Materials" here.

    My wife has a Teledyne titanium frame bicycle. It's like riding a wet noodle.
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      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeJul 15th 2020
     
    Please no more details of your sex life.
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      CommentAuthorpcstru
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2020
     
    Posted By: AsterixWhile a carbon-fiber (or Kevlar) frame may be somewhat lighter, it has no benefit for the less-than-professional rider.

    They benefit everyone in exactly the same way; you use less energy to get to and maintain any given speed. For the professional rider there is more benefit in that respect because the faster you go, the more energy you save.
    • CommentAuthorBigOilRep
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2020
     
    Posted By: AsterixBrazed double-butted steel is still the best all-around frame material. It can be repaired or modified easily.

    While a carbon-fiber (or Kevlar) frame may be somewhat lighter, it has no benefit for the less-than-professional rider.

    cf "Materials"here.

    My wife has a Teledyne titanium frame bicycle. It's like riding a wet noodle.

    My main bike is Reynolds steel and it's great, comfy and tough. There's no way I'd use it for anything competitive though and I'm not a pro.
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      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2020
     
    Well it's one way to pay for your university degree nowadays.
    • CommentAuthorAsterix
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2020
     
    Posted By: pcstruThey benefit everyone in exactly the same way; you use less energy to get to and maintain any given speed.


    The picture is far more complex than you're positing. Professional riders use a different cycling style than the average tourist. If carbon fiber were the end-all, steel bicycles would be a thing of the past--yet high-end bicycles are still made with steel. It takes a fair degree of craftsmanship to assemble one.

    There's more than a little bit of the "audiophile factor" involved in all of this.
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      CommentAuthorpcstru
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2020
     
    Posted By: Asterix
    Posted By: pcstruThey benefit everyone in exactly the same way; you use less energy to get to and maintain any given speed.


    The picture is far more complex than you're positing. Professional riders use a different cycling style than the average tourist.

    That might make them more efficient, it doesn't change the game at all as far as energy is concerned.


    If carbon fiber were the end-all, steel bicycles would be a thing of the past--yet high-end bicycles are still made with steel. It takes a fair degree of craftsmanship to assemble one.


    If carbon fibre frames were the same cost as steel, there would be no steel frames. If weight were not important to average riders, steel would not already be displaced by aluminium in modern mid range bikes.

    There's more than a little bit of the "audiophile factor" involved in all of this.


    High end audio often eschews objective measurement because those measurements show that products do not perform as claimed (or the claims are nonsense and cannot be measured). The difference in energy required to accelerate an object to a speed is objective, measurable and measurable differences in mass translate to measurable differences in energy. That difference is also linked to speed and the relationship is not linear.

    It is fair to say 'pro' cyclists get 'more' benefit as they are averaging faster speeds, so the less additional kg they have to haul the less energy they have to supply. It is not true to say they offer no benefit to anyone else. The cost/value of that benefit is a different matter.
    • CommentAuthorBigOilRep
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2020 edited
     
    Posted By: pcstruIf carbon fibre frames were the same cost as steel, there would be no steel frames.

    That's not really true. There's a decent overlap in price - there aren't actually many cheap steel framed bikes on the market, as they are marketed towards enthusiasts. Really cheap bikes are generally aluminium - you can get one for £165 now. If a carbon frame was the same price as aluminium there would be no aluminium frames, that's for sure.

    People ride steel bikes over cabon because the are more comfortable with a different feel, not beacause of price. Steel is also the go-to material for bespoke framebuilding.

    My steel frame bike actually cost more than my carbon frame, though I use it a lot more as it's my commuter and is more comfortable.

    Other than that, I agree. The benefits of a carbon bike are exactly the same to an amateur as a pro - it's lighter. As it's easy to get one around the £1000 mark, anyone doing road biking as a hobby (ie in a club or entering events) is probably going to get one.


    Here's a bit of a roundup of steel framed bikes, as you can see they are pretty pricey

    https://road.cc/content/buyers-guide/21-best-steel-road-bikes-and-frames-194720
    • CommentAuthorAsterix
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2020 edited
     
    Aluminum has fallen out of favor because of one property--it work-hardens and then fails when stressed. The web is littered with people who, for example, purchased a Cannondale-framed bicycle only to notice that some of the tubes were cracking after a few thousand km. But we'd already seen the same thing with the suicide-on-wheels Speedwell aluminum frames--eventually, the manufacturer had to recall all the front wheel forks and replace them with--wait for it--steel.

    Watch the riders on the Tour de France carefully (whenever it returns). In particular, watch what other riders do when a member of the peloton goes down. It's not unusual to see riders jump over the downed cyclist. These guys use the bicycle as a part of the body, not something to ride on. I submit that the average recreational cyclist (we're talking about road bikes here) does not think the same way. A couple of kg difference in weight won't matter to the average rider.
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      CommentAuthoraber0der
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2020
     
    I forced my eborg really hard today. I maxed out myself and the bike to the best of my ability( to aldi marmstorf and back in under 70 minutes) and the battery is still five-starring at me. It almost looks like them ebikes incentivise reckless driving.
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      CommentAuthorpcstru
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2020
     
    Posted By: AsterixA couple of kg difference in weight won't matter to the average rider.


    "Won't matter" to X, maybe. "no benefit", not so much.

    I suspect the allure of specialist steel products is that it is easier to work with (particularly to weld) than Aluminium for small custom shops and still competitively (marketability) light; look at what Musk is doing with his stainless rolled product and why. 'work hardening' might translate to "design error" or some QA failure along the production chain. Cycling doesn't seem to be a massively demanding use case for the material unless you are trying to shave every last gram off and when that is the case - every material is pushed toward the limits because every last gram is amplified by the square of the speed in terms of energy greed. Even in 'normal' design weight/mass is important enough that bikes aren't normally equipped with brakes that are designed to normally make short work dumping 300kJ/65kW, should you need that in a hurry. If a couple of Kg wont matter you might ask why not?

    BOR's "different feel" does sound suspiciously audiophiley. Not that how you feel about stuff isn't important in either domain. It just doesn't change the physics. There is a law of diminishing returns to being 'better' in almost everything whether that is chasing a bit better 'feel'/'sound' to being able to shave weight - a few Kg for a few hundred, a few hundred g more for a few thousand and the last tens of grams are within your grasp for tens of thousands. Critically throwing money to save weight in bikes consistently delivers solid benefits where pandering to feelings is not very reliable. Even where you do get a benefit, feelings about things might reasonably change so this week you are up, next week ... who knows.
    • CommentAuthorAsterix
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2020
     
    If you're building a respectable steel bike, you don't weld the pieces together. You braze (hard solder) them. Steel bicycle tubing is double-butted; that is, it's drawn such that the ends of a tube are thicker than the middle. I'm not aware of any bikes using double-butted aluminum tubes.

    Interestingly, a too-stiff bicycle is miserable to ride--something like bottoming out the shocks on your car . Steel has a bit of a "spring" to it. It's quite a complex matter.

    Weight in the frame matters much less than weight in the wheels.
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      CommentAuthoraber0der
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2020 edited
     
    Trainspotting the car battery absolutely depleted the battery of the bike.
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      CommentAuthoraber0der
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2020
     
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      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2020