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    • CommentAuthorsonoboy
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2012
     
    Posted By: Angus
    Posted By: ping1400Just bought a 3.1 kW solar system (20 m2 panels, inverter, cables, construction rails and bolts) for 3600 Euro including tax. With a residential electricity price of 23 cents/kWh my solar system will pay back in 5 years. The panels are guaranteed for 25 years.

    Edit: price of solar systems is dropping at redicule tempo, same system did cost 6500 Euro 1.5 year ago. We are reaching almost 1 euro per watt peak system costs. It is expected the system prices will drop another 50% next 5 years.


    What RU using for storage?


    Well, I don't know about him but I've got about 80 kilowatt-hours worth of Nickel Iron batteries, otherwise known as Edison Cells. When somebody tells you they can't make a rechargeable battery that last forever doesn't know what the hell their talking about. Some of mine are more than 80 years old and still going strong...
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      CommentAuthoralsetalokin
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2012 edited
     
    Electric doorstops! Very handy.

    But you wouldn't want to drop one on your foot.....

    Flywheels are great storage systems. A nice superconducting flywheel in Ping's basement should do the trick.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: alsetalokinFlywheels are great storage systems. A nice superconducting flywheel in Ping's basement should do the trick.


    RU talking about a real flywheel or a superconducting current loop? The former only stores minimal energy, the latter is not quite ready for home use as far as I know.

    My question to Ping was really more along the line of which Pb-H cell he is using. My friends who are heavily into this stuff seem to like to assemble stacks of individual 2.1V Pb-H cells about the size of a car battery.
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      CommentAuthorpcstru
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2012
     
    Interesting report which concludes that by 2050 the USA could use 80% renewable supply and meet hourly demands.
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2012
     
    Renewables could get us to 100% with sufficient storage capacity and smart grid capability. There is capital cost, and a number of failure risks to mitigate. Unfortunately, we have a group of fucks here who took over a once valuable naturalist organization called the Sierra Club who actively interfere with virtually all new power plant or transmission project of any kind. Yes, they routinely fight solar and wind installations.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2012
     
    Well, windmills kill birds and solar installations suck up the sun.
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2012
     
    Posted By: AngusWell, windmills kill birds and solar installations suck up the sun.
    There are mitigation technologies to reduce bird kills with windmills. As for providing shade in the desert, yes, there are some scorpion lovers who don't want the critters to have more shade.
  1.  
    Real flywheels store all kinds of energy and are very efficient, I thot. Aren't there even roadable buses driving around on flywheel-stored power, that run along on their routes for half an hour then get a quick three minute spin up at the turnaround point?
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2012
     
    Posted By: alsetalokinReal flywheels store all kinds of energy and are very efficient, I thot. Aren't there even roadable buses driving around on flywheel-stored power, that run along on their routes for half an hour then get a quick three minute spin up at the turnaround point?
    By far the cheapest energy storage mechanism today is pumped hydro. It's just coming up with new places to lift and drop water into is getting tough.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2012
     
    Posted By: alsetalokinReal flywheels store all kinds of energy and are very efficient, I thot. Aren't there even roadable buses driving around on flywheel-stored power, that run along on their routes for half an hour then get a quick three minute spin up at the turnaround point?


    I think flywheel stored power in the grid is mostly used for frequency regulation. Flywheel buses store braking energy between stops. There was a company that built a 5 MWh flywheel that could discharge at 20MW, but as you see, it's a limited capability. They went bankrupt.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2012
     
    Posted By: joshsBy far the cheapest energy storage mechanism today is pumped hydro. It's just coming up with new places to lift and drop water into is getting tough.


    Unless you store it underground
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      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2012
     
    I think there are plans to store compressed air underground as well.
    Compress it at low temperature at night and use it to generate power in the day.
    Doesn't sound very efficient to me.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2012
     
    Posted By: TrimI think there are plans to store compressed air underground as well.
    Compress it at low temperature at night and use it to generate power in the day.
    Doesn't sound very efficient to me.


    It is under extensive development already, with over 3GW now proposed for the US alone.
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2012
     
    Posted By: Angus
    Posted By: joshsBy far the cheapest energy storage mechanism today is pumped hydro. It's just coming up with new places to lift and drop water into is getting tough.


    Unless you store itunderground
    I did not assume above ground storage. Suitable underground storage sites aren't that easy to find either.
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2012
     
    Posted By: TrimI think there are plans to store compressed air underground as well.
    Compress it at low temperature at night and use it to generate power in the day.
    Doesn't sound very efficient to me.
    Compressed air efficiency is decent provided one does not try to extract more than 10% to 20% of the total energy store.
    • CommentAuthorsonoboy
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: joshs
    Posted By: alsetalokinReal flywheels store all kinds of energy and are very efficient, I thot. Aren't there even roadable buses driving around on flywheel-stored power, that run along on their routes for half an hour then get a quick three minute spin up at the turnaround point?
    By far the cheapest energy storage mechanism today is pumped hydro. It's just coming up with new places to lift and drop water into is getting tough.


    My uncle was in charge of a project back when I was a kid that put a manmade res on top of a mountain. They hollowed out the inside for the generating / pumping equipment.. At that time they had the largest overhead crane system in the world. Massive. After all was finished it was completely automated, only one security guard. 600 megawatt capacity.
    • CommentAuthorenginerd
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2012
     
    The energy storage in a mechanical flywheel is limited. By the amount of mass in the universe?
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      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2012
     
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2012
     
    Posted By: enginerdThe energy storage in a mechanical flywheel is limited. By the amount of mass in the universe?


    Stop spinning! You're Maching me sick!
  2.  
    And the rumble in your bearings.

    Of course, the rumble in my bearings has cut down on a lot of other action, too. Ah well, sic transit, Gloria. Is it Monday already?