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  1.  
    Posted By: Angus
    Posted By: enginerdThe energy storage in a mechanical flywheel is limited. By the amount of mass in the universe?


    Stop spinning! You're Maching me sick!

    That's revolutionary. God is not Mached.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2012
     
    It's all just whirring along nicely since He fixed the stars.
    • CommentAuthorLakes
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2012
     
    Posted By: sonoboy
    Posted By: joshs
    Posted By: alsetalokinReal flywheels store all kinds of energy and are very efficient, I thot. Aren't there even roadable buses driving around on flywheel-stored power, that run along on their routes for half an hour then get a quick three minute spin up at the turnaround point?
    By far the cheapest energy storage mechanism today is pumped hydro. It's just coming up with new places to lift and drop water into is getting tough.


    My uncle was in charge of a project back when I was a kid that put a manmade res on top of a mountain. They hollowed out the inside for the generating / pumping equipment.. At that time they had the largest overhead crane system in the world. Massive. After all was finished it was completely automated, only one security guard. 600 megawatt capacity.
    Like this?
    •  
      CommentAuthorping1400
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: Angus
    Posted By: ping1400Just bought a 3.1 kW solar system (20 m2 panels, inverter, cables, construction rails and bolts) for 3600 Euro including tax. With a residential electricity price of 23 cents/kWh my solar system will pay back in 5 years. The panels are guaranteed for 25 years.

    Edit: price of solar systems is dropping at redicule tempo, same system did cost 6500 Euro 1.5 year ago. We are reaching almost 1 euro per watt peak system costs. It is expected the system prices will drop another 50% next 5 years.


    What RU using for storage?


    Almost ashamed to admit, but I use the grid as my storage. In The Netherlands we have the most reliable grid in the world (> 99,99% uptime).

    By law my supplier is obliged to net my production with my consumption, as long as we consume more than we produce (per year) up to 5000 kWh of infeed per year. In practice my old meter just turns backwards when I produce, and at night and in winter it turns the normal direction.

    I expect this law to be changed within 5 or 6 years, because effectively I also get my tax back by netting my production with my consumption. The moment too many people have solar panels the ministry of finance will put pressure to put a halt this netting law. By then I hope newer and cheaper battery technology is available.

    A battery of 20 kWh with a three phase inverter would be needed. Also additional solar panels can be placed, and when prices drop further even some over-capacity during summer can become acceptable. On large scale power-to-gas is now considered, using free electricity during periods of sun and wind to create hydrogen and store it in the existing gas grid (which already contains up to 20% hydrogen).
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2012
     
    @Ping
    What is the cost to you of grid electricity per kWh?
  2.  
    Posted By: LakesLikethis?


    Synchronised and spinning-in-air emergency load pick-up rate from standby 0 to 1,320 MW in 12 seconds


    Gulp.
    •  
      CommentAuthorping1400
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2012
     
    Posted By: Angus@Ping
    What is the cost to you of grid electricity per kWh?


    About 10 cents for the commodity and about 15 cents tax (energy tax and VAT)
    => Total of almost 25 cents/kWh

    Therefor even in our Dutch climate payback time is less than 6 years.
    • CommentAuthorsonoboy
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2012
     
    Posted By: Lakes
    Posted By: sonoboy
    Posted By: joshs
    Posted By: alsetalokinReal flywheels store all kinds of energy and are very efficient, I thot. Aren't there even roadable buses driving around on flywheel-stored power, that run along on their routes for half an hour then get a quick three minute spin up at the turnaround point?
    By far the cheapest energy storage mechanism today is pumped hydro. It's just coming up with new places to lift and drop water into is getting tough.


    My uncle was in charge of a project back when I was a kid that put a manmade res on top of a mountain. They hollowed out the inside for the generating / pumping equipment.. At that time they had the largest overhead crane system in the world. Massive. After all was finished it was completely automated, only one security guard. 600 megawatt capacity.
    Likethis?


    Yup. Just like that only that's not the one. It takes the plant I'm talking about 3 min to reach full capacity of 600 megawatts.
    •  
      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2012
     
    Posted By: ping1400
    Posted By: Angus@Ping
    What is the cost to you of grid electricity per kWh?


    About 10 cents for the commodity and about 15 cents tax (energy tax and VAT)
    => Total of almost 25 cents/kWh

    Therefor even in our Dutch climate payback time is less than 6 years.


    Now that the Caribbean Netherlands is legally part of the Netherlands, do you think the same system will eventually be applied there? There is a lot of sun and wind, but electricity comes mostly from diesel, except in Bonaire. Even with the newly installed wind turbines there the cost of electricity remains above $US 0.45/kWh and there is no feed-in tariff arrangement.
    •  
      CommentAuthorping1400
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2012
     
    Posted By: Angus
    Posted By: ping1400
    Posted By: Angus@Ping
    What is the cost to you of grid electricity per kWh?


    About 10 cents for the commodity and about 15 cents tax (energy tax and VAT)
    => Total of almost 25 cents/kWh

    Therefor even in our Dutch climate payback time is less than 6 years.


    Now that the Caribbean Netherlands is legally part of the Netherlands, do you think the same system will eventually be applied there? There is a lot of sun and wind, but electricity comes mostly from diesel, except in Bonaire. Even with the newly installed wind turbines there the cost of electricity remains above $US 0.45/kWh and there is no feed-in tariff arrangement.


    Hmmm, this sounds very interesting. I think I will ask some legal guys to check this. This would specifically apply for Bonaire, Sint Eustatius and Saba, as they are legally Dutch municipalities.
    •  
      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2012
     
    I wish Britain would make all its South Atlantic islands that want to legally part of the UK.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDuracell
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2012
     
    Posted By: TrimI wish Britain would make all its South Atlantic islands that want to legally part of the UK.
    Where will Britain manufacture all these islands? How will they part the UK (legally or otherwise)?
    •  
      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2012
     
    Huh?
    •  
      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2012
     
    It was not a particularly popular move in the Netherlands, as I understand it. It was very expensive, and even so the Islands have not been brought up to the social standards of the European Netherlands. (But they are much improved nevertheless.)
    •  
      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2012
     
    I think Duracell is commenting on your grandma.
    •  
      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2012
     
    Well hopefully the Falklands will be oil rich, South Georgia will make a base for our Trident submarines.
    As well as a potential prison.

    St. Helens is at long last getting an airport, so tourism should flourish (and they grow great coffee).

    Which leaves Tristan de Cunha and Ascension as potential loss makers.

    Ascension has a porous volcanic rock structure which lets rain drain very quickly into the sea, some investment into providing an artificial water proof barrier a few metres below the surface would turn the island verdant and ideal for tourism.

    Tristan might remain a net drain on the exchequer.

    Tristan da Cunha
    •  
      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2012
     
    The British Indian Ocean Territory will cost you a pretty penny unless you can pass it off in time back to the expropriated natives.
    • CommentAuthorenginerd
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2012
     
    It seems like it would be easier to just sell it to some rich guy.
    •  
      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2012
     
    The people will have their say, first.

    Argentina will be a tad upset (great) if the Falklanders vote to join the UK.

    My master plan would include getting New Zealand to join the UK in place of Scotland, that will upset the French.
    •  
      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2012
     
    I have a feeling it would upset the New Zealanders as well. I am going to visit family there in the autumn so I'll check.