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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2012
     
    This thread is specially for Vibrator, or anybody else who wants to try to explain which way round a hysteresis loop you have to go to create energy from nothing.
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      CommentAuthorTrim
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2012
     
    Both ways at once.
    • CommentAuthorkorkskrew
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2012
     
    Back to the future.
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2012
     
    Posted By: AngusThis thread is specially for Vibrator, or anybody else who wants to try to explain which way round a hysteresis loop you have to go to create energy from nothing.
    That is one of those unfair questions, like what resistor values to put on either side of a perfect diode so as to harvest Johnson Noise as usable energy.
    • CommentAuthorenginerd
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2012
     
    I wish I knew what a hysteresis loop was. Sounds like a knitting thing.
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    I thought we were "leaving that critical step aside for now".
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    It's just an engineering problem.
    • CommentAuthortensor
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2012
     
    The way 'round that gets you past the sticky spot??
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      CommentAuthoralsetalokin
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: enginerdI wish I knew what a hysteresis loop was. Sounds like a knitting thing.


    Knit one, purl two, drop the loop and around we go....pretty soon we've got a sweater, for only one third the original cost of the wool.
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      CommentAuthoralsetalokin
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: AngusThis thread is specially for Vibrator, or anybody else who wants to try to explain which way round a hysteresis loop you have to go to create energy from nothing.

    It is very easy to create energy from nothing. The problem is obtaining the nothing in the first place.

    But when you do, look out: it will spontaneously decay, into something. Releasing a lot of energy when it does.

    Of course this is probably the same energy you used up, finding and gathering and storing nothing in the first place, until you had enough of it for it to decay (a critical mass of nothing, which of course is zero grams. Exactly.)

    Just remember: the Universe abhors nothing.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2012
     
    This is a very deep and wise post Al has given us. It's worth adding, perhaps, that according to the Uncertainty Principle, the less nothing you have, the more likely it will spontaneously create something.
    • CommentAuthorVibrator
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2012 edited
     
    Josh is closest; the question's pointed on false presumptions. Firstly, direction around a loop depends on whether we start out in attraction or repulsion, ie. the sign of H - so it's clockwise for positive and ACW for negative. Secondly it's not the direction that determines the energy outcome but rather the difference in speed between changes in B relative to H - so in the case of a simple PM system, the movements of the domains vs the magnets themselves.

    The BH graph of a gain looks much like that of any other PM interaction - a minor loop in quadrant 1. Besides, an hysteresis loop capable of showing an energy balance would need at least one more axis.

    Think it through for yourself - using the example of Sv loss i've described elsewhere; the loss arises because B keeps changing after H has stopped. Or, to put it another way, B couldn't keep up with H.

    Of course to reverse that particular example we'd want B to decrease for free while the magnets paused, which is impossible. Likewise, in repulsion we'd want B to increase while we pause, which is the opposite of what happens.

    Sv loss is interesting from a thermodynamical perspective because a gain would be of the same class of interactions - only the direction of the asymmetry changes.. The answer to where the loss goes is also where the gain comes from - in a nutshell, free (ie. automatic, but delayed) changes in B.
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      CommentAuthoraber0der
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2012
     
    And?
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2012
     
    Well joshs is certainly closer than Vibrator is.
    • CommentAuthorVibrator
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2012
     
    And, so, having been utterly fed up with everyone else's attempts to understand the issue, it'd be fascinating to know how far the Jury got with it, if anywhere... Dr MacDonald states there was at least one member actively playing around with the theory so, as the elected representative, and not least as an interested engineering physicist, he ought to have an opinion here...
    • CommentAuthorVibrator
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2012
     
    Posted By: AngusWell joshs is certainly closer than Vibrator is.
    How so? I meant he was right insofar as the question's nonsensical, like asking "is it quicker to London or by train?"..
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2012
     
    Posted By: VibratorJosh is closest; the question's pointed on false presumptions. Firstly, direction around a loop depends on whether we start out in attraction or repulsion, ie. the sign of H - so it's clockwise for positive and ACW for negative. Secondly it's not the direction that determines the energy outcome but rather the difference in speed between changes in B relative to H - so in the case of a simple PM system, the movements of the domains vs the magnets themselves.

    The BH graph of a gain looks much like that of any other PM interaction - a minor loop in quadrant 1. Besides, an hysteresis loop capable of showing an energy balance would need at least one more axis.

    Think it through for yourself - using the example of Sv loss i've described elsewhere; the loss arises because B keeps changing after H has stopped. Or, to put it another way, B couldn't keep up with H.

    Of course to reverse that particular example we'd want B todecreasefor free while the magnets paused, which is impossible. Likewise, in repulsion we'd want B to increase while we pause, which is the opposite of what happens.

    Sv loss is interesting from a thermodynamical perspective because a gain would be of the same class of interactions - only the direction of the asymmetry changes.. The answer to where the loss goes is also where the gain comes from - in a nutshell, free (ie. automatic, but delayed) changes in B.
    No, to get gain, B would have to change in the same direction as H, before H changes. And that my shaky friend does not happen.
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2012
     
    Posted By: VibratorAnd, so, having been utterly fed up with everyone else's attempts to understand the issue, it'd be fascinating to know how far the Jury got with it, if anywhere... Dr MacDonald states there was at least one member actively playing around with the theory so, as the elected representative, and not least as an interested engineering physicist, he ought to have an opinion here...
    Maybe you missed the part where the errors of that individual were ultimately pointed out by other jury members.
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      CommentAuthoralsetalokin
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2012 edited
     
    Well... I finally found my way back here. But I came by a different path than when I left.

    Speaking of which...
    The monk TenSin liked to climb an easy path up the mountain in the morning, stay overnight meditating in a small shrine, and return the next day to the temple in the valley. One morning he set out early, just after sunrise, taking his time, dallying and meeting persons, resting and luncheoning and strolling on. He reached the mountaintop shrine exactly at sunset and settled in for the evening. He recalled, while laying out his tatami on the straw floor, that he had seen an old mendicant with his begging bowl sitting under a particular tree, a bodhi tree in fact, and just at that moment, the bell in the temple had struck its afternoon chime, which it always did at exactly the same time in the afternoon just at two pm, since they had an always-on T100 pipe directly to NIST and knew what time it was.

    All is one, and with that thought resonating like a clear light in his brain, TenSin slept.

    In the morning, he found the little shrine in a terrible state, so he worked all day repairing and cleaning, sweeping and mopping, burning incense and drinking the pure water of the shrine's little spring, until he realized that it was already after noon and he had better leave soon. He put away his tools and hurried down the mountain,starting just before two oclock and hurrying straight away.

    BONNNGGGGG!!! The great temple bell rang its chime... and TenSin saw that he was at _the same mendicant's exact same tree_, at the exact same time he passed by there the previous day.

    At that instant, TenSin became enlightened.

    He turned around, went back to the shrine and lived there the rest of his days, changing his name to Tada Ima and speaking about Zen to anyone who spent the night and worked to maintain the shrine.

    When the old mendicant died, Tada Ima took his bowl and robe, and spent his days under the bodhi tree, telling everyone who passed him exactly what time it was.
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    A generation before, two monks decided to race along the mountain path. But with a twist: one monk would start at the bottom, and the other would start at the top.

    "Wait a minute, it's a lot easier to run downhill than it is to run uphill" complained the younger monk, who had drawn the longer straw that meant he would start from the bottom. "That's not fair !!" So, by consulting with a time-motion analyst and running Monte Carlo sims on their iPads, they arrived at a handicap system that would equalise the effort: the bottom monk would start up at dawn, and the top monk would start down at one forty five pm.
    They agreed that this was fair and took their places for the race (the upper monk climbing up to the newly constructed sacred bordello on the top of the hill during the night.) At dawn, the lower monk started out, while the upper monk slept in until noon, then started down at 1:45 pm.

    BONGGGG ! The temple bell? NO.... the two heads of the monks colliding in mid-race as they rounded a tight turn, one up, one down.

    In that instant, both became enlightened, and to commemorate the experience, they planted a bodhi tree on the spot.