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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeAug 7th 2019
     
    Posted By: alsetalokinalso the ropes


    small steps
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      CommentAuthorDuracell
    • CommentTimeAug 7th 2019 edited
     
    A couple of my friends died from drug overdoses that might or might not have been accidental. One friend hanged himself, but survived, permanently brain damaged. My next door neighbor blew his brains out when I was a child. I come from a rural part of the country with a dwindling population where those who opt not to leave often find themselves facing very limited economic prospects and increasing social isolation and loneliness, and many turn to alcohol and become alcoholics. Suicide rates there, especially among the elderly, are quite high. Most of them seem to resort to hanging, but occasionally one of them will walk out with the tide and just keep going.
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    Posted By: Angus
    Posted By: alsetalokinalso the ropes


    small steps
    Apparently they have to be banned also.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeAug 7th 2019 edited
     
    Ah. Yes.

    ETA Returning for a moment to sanity, it makes sense to remove guns from the hands of the general populace who don't actually need them other than for shooting members of the populace. Need does not include "want for aesthetic, cultural or historical reasons". OTOH it is impractical to remove dual-use items such as rope, stepladders and rat poison from the hardware stores.

    So logically, you accept the benefit of doing the one and the incompleteness of not doing the other.

    Simples, unless you are being exceptionally simple.
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      CommentAuthorpcstru
    • CommentTimeAug 7th 2019 edited
     
    Posted By: Angusit makes sense to remove guns from the hands of the general populace


    It is not about removing them - most of the rest of the worlds populations can still have guns, or even regulating them - the USA already has regulations. It is just about the 'level of' regulation. Checks, licensing, inspection; they don't prevent gun ownership but the more they control the availability of 'firepower' (the ability to put out high energy projectiles as a function of time, range/accuracy) the more you constrain the options available vs effort, forethought and planning required to get round the regulatory hoops that impose the constraint and in the rest of the world more readily prevents nutbags going at it with a Semi Auto with 40 rounds in the clip vs ... people just trying to have a nice, normal day.

    Framing the issue as tasking away peoples guns is a successful tactic for the NRA; A fairer way to frame it is "we just want to make sure you are a sensible gun owner and, if you want to store firearms we'd lke to be able to check you are doing so ... sensibly", but it's not quite so snappy.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeAug 7th 2019
     
    OK, that's true. I'm being simplistic. OTOH removing the guns and not the magazines would be more effective than the reverse.

    But the real issue is deeper, of course. What really has to be removed is FEAR. And it seems to me that the main difference between the USA and the rest of the civilised world is that USans are far more afraid than we are, just generally. The question of why is a chicken and egg problem but if you broil the chicken and fry the egg simultaneously, it's a quality meal.
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    Yes, after 33 years here I agree.

    ETA Genocide. Slavery. These have been banished to the collective subconscious.
    • CommentAuthorkorkskrew
    • CommentTimeAug 7th 2019 edited
     
    Thanks for your condolences. Don't sweat Andrew being a dick; it's his shtick, you shouldn't expect anything different. I mostly BIPS him anyway.

    She died last night, as expected.

    She wasn't very intelligent. It was no surprise that she didn't know how to make the gun work the first time. The surprise was that she could the second time. The person who sold her the second gun must have given her some instruction. Woe be to them if my wife ever finds out who sold her the second gun.
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      CommentAuthorDuracell
    • CommentTimeAug 7th 2019 edited
     
    Sorry to hear that. Sounds like a small mercy considering the damage that had been inflicted.
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      CommentAuthoraber0der
    • CommentTimeAug 7th 2019
     
    We should not have anyone left behind so far that suicide appears to be an option worth trying, except terminal health conditions and asteroid impacts or worse. We should continue to try to be better than that.

    I've seen many people near to me die over the years.
    The only consolation I can think of is that the dead do not have to experience the loss*.

    *Most certainly, at least in the case of suicide, they did contemplate all subjective imaginable reactions.
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    The personal pain involved in lengthy contemplation of suicide is doubtless worse than the suffering of the survivors. That's where the sympathy belongs.
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      CommentAuthoraber0der
    • CommentTimeAug 7th 2019
     
    Posted By: Andrew PalfreymanThe personal pain involved in lengthy contemplation of suicide is doubtless worse than the suffering of the survivors. That's where the sympathy belongs.


    1000% agreement.
    • CommentAuthorAsterix
    • CommentTimeAug 7th 2019
     
    I suspect the pain on the part of the suicide depends a lot on the circumstances. For an atheist facing a painful decline in health, the suicide decision may, in fact, be quite calming.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeAug 8th 2019
     
    That's euthanasia. Not generally thought of as suicide.
    • CommentAuthorAsterix
    • CommentTimeAug 8th 2019 edited
     
    Well no--here (in my state) it's legal and called "physician-assisted suicide", even if you're not a young person in Asia. Euthanasia is legal only on non-human animals and other creatures.
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      CommentAuthorDuracell
    • CommentTimeAug 8th 2019 edited
     
    Posted By: aber0der
    Posted By: Andrew PalfreymanThe personal pain involved in lengthy contemplation of suicide is doubtless worse than the suffering of the survivors. That's where the sympathy belongs.


    1000% agreement.
    I strongly disagree.

    I don’t think you can or should equate them and I think it is a false dichotomy to suggest that the sympathy belongs to either one or the other.

    I have nothing but sympathy for people whose pain and suffering has driven them to the point where they feel that suicide is their only option. However, I would not dismiss or diminish the pain and suffering of the people left behind either. The death by suicide of a loved one can and does leave people forever questioning motivations and struggling with a terrible burden of guilt, doubt, confusion, anger, loss and bewilderment. It can leave them with unanswerable questions and conflicting emotions that prevent them from ever being to properly grieve the death of their loved one. Was it my fault? Did I drive them to it? How could they betray and abandon us like that? How did I miss the signs? How could I not have known? Why did or didn’t I do or say x and if I had or hadn’t would that have prevented it? Etc. Etc. Etc.

    In particular, the damage this can do to children who are left behind can be profound and permanent. It can, and sadly often does, destroy their lives as well. I know of one girl who I was in school with whose father shot and killed himself when she was 10 and she never got over it. It destroyed her life. I wouldn’t downplay any of that or allow my sympathy for the person whose suffering drove them to suicide to diminish it in any way.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeAug 8th 2019
     
    Yes. There have been three in our family - one a mother of two small girls (5 and 7- they were the little children running about at our wedding). We will never know what caused the suicide but those little girls never recovered. We've been married fifty years this month.
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    Congratulations.

    The suicide I had in mind was for a childless, alone person. I imagine most fall into this category.
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      CommentAuthorDuracell
    • CommentTimeAug 8th 2019 edited
     
    Posted By: Andrew PalfreymanCongratulations.

    The suicide I had in mind was for a childless, alone person. I imagine most fall into this category.
    So, the “survivors” you were referring to presumably don’t exist then? ...
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      CommentAuthorDuracell
    • CommentTimeAug 8th 2019 edited
     
    Posted By: AngusYes. There have been three in our family - one a mother of two small girls (5 and 7- they were the little children running about at our wedding). We will never know what caused the suicide but those little girls never recovered. We've been married fifty years this month.
    Sorry to hear that Angus. It is a terrible thing and three is a terrible toll for any family.