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      CommentAuthorLoonyman
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2012
     
    Posted By: alsetalokinNow.... travel much?

    What do you do, in the following scenario?

    You are sitting in an overwing seat on your B737 taxiing for takeoff. As the airplane rounds a hold point, you see the wingtip of your airplane-- carrying perhaps a hundred and sixty nine souls--- contact, with evident damage, the tailplane of another taxiing aircraft, a B767, also containing perhaps a hundred souls. It's clear that nobody in the 767 can see the damage, but several people in your airplane do, and you all stand up and inform the cabin crew, who informs the pilot... who proceeds to taxi on along and eventually takes off anyway, and doesn't notify the other aircraft, which also proceeds to take off.

    What would you do?

    The damage to the 767, _after_ it completed its flight.....


    http://www.avherald.com/h?article=45363621&opt=0



    Scary shit indeed!! (although what it has to do with US gun law I'm not sure...)

    I would scream and kick and shout and get myself and family thrown off the plane... I don't understand why everyone just sat down and shut up... Amazing!
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      CommentAuthoralsetalokin
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2012 edited
     
    I thought I posted it in the "what's wrong" thread.... sorry.

    Several pilots who are discussing this event say that they would have made a fuss, and one way or another prevented takeoff. A good idea. Pop a slide if you have to, knock out the purser, let the cops sort it out, but ffk, there are so many different things that could have gone wrong that didn't.... neither of those aircraft should have been allowed to leave the ground. And the pilot..... should be severely punished, all the way to losing her licence. She did get demoted to FO, but that is not enough, especially considering she's made a couple of other big booboos. Lucky to be alive certainly, lucky to be out of jail perhaps, but definitely she should be completely grounded.

    We say that we'd make a fuss.... but the "obedience to authority" experiments of Milgram tell us that it's not always that easy, when someone in a uniform and a setting tells you to comply.
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      CommentAuthorLoonyman
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2012
     
    I agree that many people have difficulty in opposing figures of authority, however a good sceptical mindset, along with a deep distrust of uniforms in general has got me into trouble on more than one occasion.

    I dont for 100% know how I would respond if told to administer electric shocks to someone, but I do know if I saw the passenger plane I was sitting on get damaged, I would not be sitting down and shutting up!
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2012
     
    Not just obedience to authority. I think the "don't make waves" phenomenon was pretty active here.

    To take the other side for argument's sake, I can point out that the pilot's judgement (if that's what it was) was actually correct since those photos were taken after successful completion of the flight.
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    Posted By: AngusNot just obedience to authority. I think the "don't make waves" phenomenon was pretty active here.

    To take the other side for argument's sake, I can point out that the pilot's judgement (if that's what it was) was actually correct since those photos were taken after successful completion of the flight.


    Um.... I don't quite have a riposte for that one.

    Except to point out that the pilot who _caused_ the damage didn't have significant damage, but the other pilot who was uninformed and unaware... did have significant damage in a vital area.... on a control surface, the trimmable horizontal stabilizer.
    But as you say, the flight was completed successfully.... proving that that surface doesn't need to be intact, therefore we can defer maintenance and keep the aircraft in service. Just don't let the self-loading freight catch a glimpse-- don't want to worry them needlessly. Why, there is another big piece of tail on the other side, so a bit missing here and there won't matter much.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2012 edited
     
    I believe some passengers thought they saw the planes touch. Nobody mentioned seeing damage. Which is consistent with the pictures. Add then there is the passengers' desire to avoid a return to the gate and hours more waiting...

    It's amazing what will fly if you wish hard enough.
    • CommentAuthornova
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2012
     
    Posted By: AngusI disagree strongly that the Swiss have anything like the US gun culture. It's quite true that the Swiss can own guns. so can Canadians.

    What makes you think our social problems with drugs are any different from the USA? We have a very comparable society.
    It is you who claim the US has a gun culture. I claim the US has a sub-culture heavily involved in drugs and crime. Many of the criminals use guns, this does not make a gun culture. The Swiss have a true gun culture.
    "Although there is more per capita firepower in Switzerland than any place in the world, it is one of the safest places to be."
    < http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/articles/guns-crime-swiss.html >
    I could not freely roam in most of the areas around St. Louis MO without placing myself in harms way.
    Canada has a black population of around 2% while the US has a black poplulation over 14%. The black population represents more than 35% of the prison population. Of the blacks that carry guns, most carry guns illegally. There is a considerable difference between the US and Canada where crime is concerned. It's not the gun, it's the criminal.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2012 edited
     
    We're on shaky ground here again. Are you actually suggesting that the US has more gun crime because it has more blacks?

    As for the Swiss, what they have is universal conscription. Soldiers have to look after their own weapons. There is no Swiss NRA That's the Mother Church of the US gun culture.
    • CommentAuthortinker
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2012
     
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: tinkerI'm afraid there is a Swiss NRA...

    http://www.schuetzenmuseum.ch.saga.interway.ch/?page_id=583&lang=en


    You call that an NRA? This is an NRA. Yours is the Swiss Sports Shooting Museum Ladies Auxiliary.
    • CommentAuthortinker
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2012
     
    And of course that only emphasises the point. It is nutters, not guns that are the problem.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2012
     
    It's the central importance of guns in the minds of perfectly sane people that is the problem. As fostered by the NRA and recent decisions of the US supreme court.
    • CommentAuthornova
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2012
     
    Posted By: AngusWe're on shaky ground here again. Are you actually suggesting that the US has more gun crime because it has more blacks?
    I'm stating that the US has more gun crimes because we have more criminals. The availability of guns does not create criminals or crime as evidenced by the Swiss gun culture.
    Washington DC has very restrictive gun laws yet has the nations highest murder rate of 20.5 per 100,000 population. The number of concealed carry permits in the US is 1 per 50 population. I personally know of only one other person besides me that has a concealed carry permit and I have never known the other person to carry.
    Still blaming the gun is dead.
    Canada has a high gun ownership. Why doesn't it have the same murder rate as the US?
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2012
     
    I have already explained the answer to your question. Canada and other places do not make a fetish out of gun ownership. It is considered a privilege, like a licence to drive, not a political right like free speech. The privilege can be restricted or withdrawn if that is desired by the authorities (who, ultimately, are us).

    Your comment about having more crime because you have more criminals is circular and meaningless. What makes a criminal is simply the commission of a crime, so it tells us nothing.
    • CommentAuthornova
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2012
     
    Posted By: LoonymanI've said this befor, and no doubt will again, and I know correlation is not causation, but the US having such fucking lame gun laws, and the US having such a massive death rate by fire arm compared to the civilised world ARE related.
    The US has laws against murder. They consider murder as a serious crime. They also have laws against murder with a firearm. Commit murder with a firearm and now you are in real serious trouble.
    And once again. DC has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the US yet has the highest murder by gun. Would you like to repeat the correlation and causation statement again?
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2012
     
    A thought. Would it be legal in the US for a citizen to go about carrying a rapier in a scabbard, for protection against criminals and tyrannical governments? If not, why not?
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2012
     
    Posted By: nova
    Posted By: LoonymanI've said this befor, and no doubt will again, and I know correlation is not causation, but the US having such fucking lame gun laws, and the US having such a massive death rate by fire arm compared to the civilised world ARE related.
    The US has laws against murder. They consider murder as a serious crime. They also have laws against murder with a firearm. Commit murder with a firearm and now you are in real serious trouble.
    And once again. DC has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the US yet has the highest murder by gun. Would you like to repeat the correlation and causation statement again?


    Washington is in the USA which has effectively no restriction on guns. Local variations in minor ordinances about ordnance are unimportant. Hell, we here have fairly reasonable gun laws and we suffer badly just from the leakage across the border.
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2012 edited
     
    For clarity in this discussion - the USA does not have a particularly high murder rate. It is 35th in the world. It has a high incidence of gun deaths, including murder, suicide and accident. It is twelfth in the world, but the others either have ongoing wars (Mexico, Columbia) or are likely statistical aberrations caused by a small population (Estonia). It has the world's highest rate of gun related injuries including deaths.
    • CommentAuthornova
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2012
     
    Posted By: AngusWashington is in the USA which has effectively no restriction on guns. Local variations in minor ordinances about ordnance are unimportant. Hell, we here have fairly reasonable gun laws and we suffer badly just from the leakage across the border.
    The how do you relate Jamaica where even owning a bullet will get you years in prison. Bordering no other country and gun ownership is 1/10 the US yet their murder rate is more than 4 times the US.
    • CommentAuthornova
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2012
     
    Posted By: AngusWashington is in the USA which has effectively no restriction on guns. Local variations in minor ordinances about ordnance are unimportant. Hell, we here have fairly reasonable gun laws and we suffer badly just from the leakage across the border.
    Some real facts on DC gun LAWS.
    " Washington, DC has what is considered to the toughest gun laws in the nation."
    "2. Carrying a Pistol Without a License (CPWL) - There is no lawful way to carry a gun in Washington, DC. Carry permits are not issued to anyone who is not a law enforcement officer or military."
    Very restrictive and yet.....
    < http://www.dc-criminal-defense.com/2010/12/gun-control-laws-in-the-distri.html >
    These laws are from 2011 but since may have changed to give people a means of self defense.