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    • CommentAuthorsonoboy
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2013
     
    It's an oxygen lift battery. The oxygen is being transferred from one plate to the other depending on charge / discharge cycle.
    • CommentAuthorsonoboy
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2013
     
    I've seen batteries so choked that it's caked with carbon right up to the top of the filler cap.
  1.  
    Posted By: sonoboy..or if 150 grains hit's you at 2800 fps...
    Film grain at such a high framerate is disturbing. As is "hit's".
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      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2013
     
    Metric bullets please...
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      CommentAuthoralsetalokin
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: sonoboy
    Posted By: alsetalokinIt is if you drop it on your foot.


    or if 150 grains hit's you at 2800 fps...

    I've got a RWS Diana 34, and if I fire its .177 cal (4.5 mm) lead pellet into a bucket of water, the pellet actually melts when it hits the water surface and a blob of molten lead falls to the bottom of the water. Its rated muzzle velocity is supposed to be 1150 fps (350 meters/sec)...
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      CommentAuthorDerrickA
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2013
     
    Thanks Al. Remind me not to steal the secret of DPDT from your house.
    •  
      CommentAuthoralsetalokin
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2013 edited
     
    The Great Battery Cavallo:



    • CommentAuthorAsterix
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2013
     
    Sorry, I don't buy that the battery is breaking down CO2 into carbon and oxygen takes about 1598kj/mol, if I'm calculating right. Further, I can find no mention of the formation of elemental carbon in the literature.

    You are most likely looking at Iron(II) oxide (black) formed via the Schikorr reaction. I can find plenty of literature on nickel-iron batteries that states that iron is the sacrificial material.

    Please, this isn't the whackadoo forum.
    • CommentAuthorsonoboy
    • CommentTimeAug 14th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: AsterixSorry, I don't buy that the battery is breaking down CO2into carbon and oxygen takes about 1598kj/mol, if I'm calculating right. Further, I can find no mention of the formation of elemental carbon in the literature.

    You are most likely looking at Iron(II) oxide (black) formed via the Schikorr reaction. I can find plenty of literature on nickel-iron batteries that states that iron is the sacrificial material.

    Please, this isn't the whackadoo forum.


    You are thickheaded. I said that it strips carbon out of the atmosphere and deposits it on the plates, that's my claim, a carbon deposit,, compound or not. Black as the ace of spades and tons of it. Why do you think float oil eliminates most all of the problem???? Just how long would the battery last if this were an iron compound from the case or electrodes??? The battery breaks down water through electrolysis and produces copious amounts of hydrogen gas with the oxygen producing oxides that make the battery function. Again, with copious amounts of oxygen being produced and gobbled up by the electrodes, how come it doesn't produce this black shit with the oil???

    http://www.nickel-iron-battery.com/Edison%20Cell%20Rejuvenation%2085%20yr-old%2013.%20DeMar.pdf
    • CommentAuthorsonoboy
    • CommentTimeAug 14th 2013
     
    Posted By: alsetalokin
    Posted By: sonoboy
    Posted By: alsetalokinIt is if you drop it on your foot.


    or if 150 grains hit's you at 2800 fps...

    I've got a RWS Diana 34, and if I fire its .177 cal (4.5 mm) lead pellet into a bucket of water, the pellet actually melts when it hits the water surface and a blob of molten lead falls to the bottom of the water. Its rated muzzle velocity is supposed to be 1150 fps (350 meters/sec)...


    With an air rifle? Wow, that's weird.
  2.  
    No, it's kinetic energy.
    • CommentAuthortensor
    • CommentTimeAug 14th 2013
     
    It's because water is incomprehensible.
    • CommentAuthorsonoboy
    • CommentTimeAug 14th 2013
     
    Posted By: alsetalokinNo, it's kinetic energy.


    How come they shoot bullets in water to get rifling data in criminal cases? Seems to me that's about the last thing they would want to do if there is melting.

    This is cool. Spinning bullets on the ice!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foZlciP6gUQ
    • CommentAuthorAsterix
    • CommentTimeAug 14th 2013
     
    Posted By: sonoboyYou are thickheaded. I said that it strips carbon out of the atmosphere and deposits it on the plates, that's my claim, a carbon deposit,, compound or not. Black as the ace of spades and tons of it


    And you obviously don't know the difference between carbon and carbonate. I'll bet that you also think that silicone is the same thing as silicon.

    You maintained elemental carbon was deposited by some mysterious process of stripping the oxygen from carbonate.

    That's just poppycock--and it's mentioned nowhere in that cited paper. Just carbonate.
    •  
      CommentAuthoralsetalokin
    • CommentTimeAug 14th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: sonoboy
    Posted By: alsetalokinNo, it's kinetic energy.


    How come they shoot bullets in water to get rifling data in criminal cases? Seems to me that's about the last thing they would want to do if there is melting.
    There are other factors involved too, like the impact dynamics. The pellet hitting the water surface experiences a large impedance mismatch and most of the energy goes into the pellet itself, deforming and melting it. A handgun bullet is so much heavier that less impedance mismatch happens and more energy is transferred to the water (or ballistic gelatin, actually).

    A .177 cal lead pellet weighs between 7 and 8 grains. Call it 0.6 grams. A .32 caliber handgun bullet weighs between 60 and 90 grains and is usually copper jacketed at least partially.

    The muzzle velocity of the Diana 34 is between 1000 fps and 1150 fps. (or 350 m/sec).
    So the KE of the pellet is MVV/2 or about 37 Joules. The specific heat of lead is 0.16 and the melting point of lead is 328 C. so to raise 0.6 gm of lead by 300 degrees C would take 0.16 x 0.6 x 300 = 28.8 Joules. (It is actually about 35 C outside right now.)

    The handgun bullet at the same velocity has at least 10 times the KE, and at ten times the mass you'd think it would melt too, but the metal jacket and the gross impedance mismatch mean that more of the KE goes into deforming the target and less into raising the lead temperature.

    (Some sources give the specific heat of lead at 0.13)

    The heat of fusion is about 25 J/gm so it would then take an additional 15 Joules to produce a totally liquid blob of lead from the pellet, at 328 degrees. So there is actually enough energy there to liquefy most of the lead in the pellet and definitely soften the rest. And if you use the lower specific heat value, you get to melt the whole thing easily.
    • CommentAuthorsonoboy
    • CommentTimeAug 14th 2013
     
    Posted By: Asterix
    Posted By: sonoboyYou are thickheaded. I said that it strips carbon out of the atmosphere and deposits it on the plates, that's my claim, a carbon deposit,, compound or not. Black as the ace of spades and tons of it


    And you obviously don't know the difference between carbon and carbonate. I'll bet that you also think that silicone is the same thing as silicon.

    You maintained elemental carbon was deposited by some mysterious process of stripping the oxygen from carbonate.

    That's just poppycock--and it's mentioned nowhere in that cited paper. Just carbonate.


    I maintained that carbon is deposited on the electrodes in one form or another. You saying there's no carbon in carbonate now?
    • CommentAuthorsonoboy
    • CommentTimeAug 14th 2013
     
    Posted By: alsetalokin
    Posted By: sonoboy
    Posted By: alsetalokinNo, it's kinetic energy.


    How come they shoot bullets in water to get rifling data in criminal cases? Seems to me that's about the last thing they would want to do if there is melting.
    There are other factors involved too, like the impact dynamics. The pellet hitting the water surface experiences a large impedance mismatch and most of the energy goes into the pellet itself, deforming and melting it. A handgun bullet is so much heavier that less impedance mismatch happens and more energy is transferred to the water (or ballistic gelatin, actually).

    A .177 cal lead pellet weighs between 7 and 8 grains. Call it 0.6 grams. A .32 caliber handgun bullet weighs between 60 and 90 grains and is usually copper jacketed at least partially.

    The muzzle velocity of the Diana 34 is between 1000 fps and 1150 fps. (or 350 m/sec).
    So the KE of the pellet is MVV/2 or about 37 Joules. The specific heat of lead is 0.16 and the melting point of lead is 328 C. so to raise 0.6 gm of lead by 300 degrees C would take 0.16 x 0.6 x 300 = 28.8 Joules. (It is actually about 35 C outside right now.)

    The handgun bullet at the same velocity has at least 10 times the KE, and at ten times the mass you'd think it would melt too, but the metal jacket and the gross impedance mismatch mean that more of the KE goes into deforming the target and less into raising the lead temperature.

    (Some sources give the specific heat of lead at 0.13)

    The heat of fusion is about 25 J/gm so it would then take an additional 15 Joules to produce a totally liquid blob of lead from the pellet, at 328 degrees. So there is actually enough energy there to liquefy most of the lead in the pellet and definitely soften the rest. And if you use the lower specific heat value, you get to melt the whole thing easily.


    Well, I'll be dipped in carbon. Sounds like a good explanation to me.
    • CommentAuthorAsterix
    • CommentTimeAug 14th 2013
     
    Okay, let's take this step-by-step.

    You started out by saying:

    What generally happens is that they become carbon bound. The potassium Hydroxide loves to suck carbon out of the air and deposit it on the plates. When the carbon builds up enough it will fall to the bottom and short the cell out to one degree or another


    and I replied:

    That's a little misleading. What the KOH does is combine with the carbon dioxide in the air to form potassium carbonate. Something like:

    2KOH + CO2 -> K2CO3 + H2O

    The brown stuff is likely oxidized iron (rust) in one form or another.


    You rattled on a bit and then I asked:

    Where does the raw carbon come from? It isn't from atmospheric CO2--there's no way a simple battery is breaking that carbon-oxygen bond. Leftover gunk from manufacturing?


    And you said:

    It is atmospheric carbon. Very little forms if the electrolyte has a layer of oil floating on it. It can form very quickly otherwise. There is only one source, CO2 in the air.


    {b]Let's stop right there.[/b} I said "raw carbon"; you replied "carbon dioxide from the atmosphere". You didn't say "It's not raw carbon, it's carbonate". (Which BTW, is what I said way up near the top:

    That's a little misleading. What the KOH does is combine with the carbon dioxide in the air to form potassium carbonate.


    And again, you said (leaving out the ad hom):

    I said that it strips carbon out of the atmosphere and deposits it on the plates, that's my claim, a carbon deposit,, compound or not. Black as the ace of spades and tons of i


    Potassium carbonate is actually white. So you're identifying the black stuff as carbonate. But it's not--it's the iron impurities, not the carbonate. I even identified the chemical reaction that produced it.

    If you're arguing that carbon is equivalent to carbonate, then honeybees deposit hydrogen on honeycombs.

    You turned your mistake into a non-sequitur. Now, I suppose that you're going to argue that potassium carbonate really is black and there's no iron at all in your black deposits.

    Go ahead, I'm done.
    • CommentAuthorsonoboy
    • CommentTimeAug 14th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: AsterixOkay, let's take this step-by-step.

    You started out by saying:

    What generally happens is that they become carbon bound. The potassium Hydroxide loves to suck carbon out of the air and deposit it on the plates. When the carbon builds up enough it will fall to the bottom and short the cell out to one degree or another


    and I replied:

    That's a little misleading. What the KOH does is combine with the carbon dioxide in the air to form potassium carbonate. Something like:

    2KOH + CO2 -> K2CO3 + H2O

    The brown stuff is likely oxidized iron (rust) in one form or another.


    You rattled on a bit and then I asked:

    Where does the raw carbon come from? It isn't from atmospheric CO2--there's no way a simple battery is breaking that carbon-oxygen bond. Leftover gunk from manufacturing?


    And you said:

    It is atmospheric carbon. Very little forms if the electrolyte has a layer of oil floating on it. It can form very quickly otherwise. There is only one source, CO2 in the air.


    {b]Let's stop right there.[/b} I said "raw carbon"; you replied "carbon dioxide from the atmosphere". You didn't say "It's not raw carbon, it's carbonate". (Which BTW, is what I said way up near the top:

    That's a little misleading. What the KOH does is combine with the carbon dioxide in the air to form potassium carbonate.


    And again, you said (leaving out the ad hom):

    I said that it strips carbon out of the atmosphere and deposits it on the plates, that's my claim, a carbon deposit,, compound or not. Black as the ace of spades and tons of i


    Potassium carbonate is actually white. So you're identifying the black stuff as carbonate. But it's not--it's the iron impurities, not the carbonate. I even identified the chemical reaction that produced it.

    If you're arguing that carbon is equivalent to carbonate, then honeybees deposit hydrogen on honeycombs.

    You turned your mistake into a non-sequitur. Now, I suppose that you're going to argue that potassium carbonate really is black and there's no iron at all in your black deposits.

    Go ahead, I'm done.


    Well then why doesn't the black form on the oxygen rich plates when oil is floated on the electrolyte sealing it off from the atmosphere?? The information I got was from a business with 3 generations of selling Edison batteries both new and used. They told me that the purpose of the float oil was to provide an atmospheric barrier to keep the electrolyte from absorbing carbon (in whatever form they ment) and "carbonizing' the plates then flaking off and ultimately shorting the cell.
  3.