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    • CommentAuthorTesl01D
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2009
     
    Posted By: Atom
    Posted By: Angus
    Posted By: AtomNo, the plum pudding did not predict large empty volumes.


    Conceded. But I'm not sure where you are going with this. Nobody says the electrons in orbitals "move". All we know is that we don't know where they are to some degree of accuracy. What you are objecting to sounds a bit like the original Planck model, now.


    I am just pointing out to Frank that the space in an atom can be created by any one of a number of theoretical models. The basis for much of modern particle physics is the need to explain the atom structure and why an electron does not crash into a positive charged nucleus.
    My own wild guess us that there is photon pressure which balances with the attraction to the nucleus at certain points. At some point, the electrons just 'surf'...

    But what do I know.
    • CommentAuthorAtom
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2009
     
    So, did this all qualify as light entertainment while waiting?

    Is Steorn ready yet for round 2?
    • CommentAuthorAtom
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2009
     
    [quote][cite]Posted By: Tesl01D[/cite]My own wild guess us that there is photon pressure which balances with the attraction to the nucleus at certain points. At some point, the electrons just 'surf'...

    But what do I know.[/quote]

    But photon pressure at such small distances would need xray energies.
    •  
      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2009
     
    Posted By: Atom
    Posted By: AngusAbsolutely!!
    And its an interesting philosophical point whether there will eventually come a model that nobody can understand.


    God Knows. LOL


    Maybe not so funny. I wonder if you can say that anyone really "understands" the proof of the four colour theorem? How soon before we get a computer-assisted theory in physics? (Or do we already have one?)
    • CommentAuthorTesl01D
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2009
     
    Posted By: Angus
    Posted By: AtomSome University in the UK did an atomic mass plot using the theory and the fit was astounding compared to the other known models.
    Right, but if I have to assume positrons and electrons don't annihilate I need a new sort of exclusion principle, and so on and so on ... Where do we wind up?

    Don't forget - the Ptolemaic cosmology was pretty good, if you didn't mind doing all the calculations, and assuming crystal spheres on epicyclic spheres.
    Just add another epicycle.
    Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
    • CommentAuthorAtom
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2009 edited
     
    [quote][cite]Posted By: Angus[/cite]Maybe not so funny. I wonder if you can say that anyone really "understands" the proof of the four colour theorem? How soon before we get a computer-assisted theory in physics? (Or do we already have one?)[/quote]

    Asimov wrote a story about computers doing our thinking!

    After mankind died and the universe went cold the computer put in hyperspace by man a trillion years before to solve the issue of entropy, said, "let there be light"
    • CommentAuthorTesl01D
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2009
     
    Posted By: Atom
    Posted By: Tesl01DMy own wild guess us that there is photon pressure which balances with the attraction to the nucleus at certain points. At some point, the electrons just 'surf'...

    But what do I know.


    But photon pressure at such small distances would need xray energies.
    Well what do you think comes out of the lowest electron shells..?
    Gamma rays come out of the nucleus (if not gamma atmospheres...)
    •  
      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2009 edited
     
    Posted By: Tesl01DGamma rays come out of the nucleus


    Not if you don't bother it.
    ETA, well, mostly.
    • CommentAuthorAtom
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2009
     
    [quote][cite]Posted By: Tesl01D[/cite]Well what do you think comes out of the lowest electron shells..?
    Gamma rays come out of the nucleus (if not gamma atmospheres...)[/quote]

    Yes but a balancing photon pressure requiring gamma or xray photons on a continuous basis sounds like Steorns next save the World miracle energy source.
    • CommentAuthorTesl01D
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2009
     
    Posted By: Angus
    Posted By: Atom
    Posted By: AngusAbsolutely!!
    And its an interesting philosophical point whether there will eventually come a model that nobody can understand.
    God Knows. LOL
    Maybe not so funny. I wonder if you can say that anyone really "understands" the proof of the four colour theorem? How soon before we get a computer-assisted theory in physics? (Or do we already have one?)
    Since the Universe is an emergent process, there's a 'level of incompetence' for all beings. And it's a moving target too.
    Infinite regression... gotta love it.
    • CommentAuthorAtom
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2009
     
    ORBO II, the size of an atom and no D-cell battery in sight.
    • CommentAuthorTesl01D
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2009
     
    Posted By: Angus
    Posted By: Tesl01DGamma rays come out of the nucleus
    Not if you don't bother it.
    ETA, well, mostly.
    Out your ass, you mean.
    • CommentAuthorAtom
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2009
     
    As I recall the 4 Color theorem is simple if the World is a donut.
    • CommentAuthorTesl01D
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2009
     
    Posted By: Atom
    Posted By: AngusMaybe not so funny. I wonder if you can say that anyone really "understands" the proof of the four colour theorem? How soon before we get a computer-assisted theory in physics? (Or do we already have one?)
    Asimov wrote a story about computers doing our thinking!

    After mankind died and the universe went cold the computer put in hyperspace by man a trillion years before to solve the issue of entropy, said, "let there be light"
    Beats turtles.
    • CommentAuthorTesl01D
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2009
     
    Posted By: AtomAs I recall the 4 Color theorem is simple if the World is a donut.
    A torus, in other words.
    •  
      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2009
     
    Posted By: Tesl01D
    Posted By: AtomAs I recall the 4 Color theorem is simple if the World is a donut.
    A torus, in other words.


    Teslo - go back to sonnets, or put down the bottle.
    • CommentAuthorTesl01D
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2009
     
    Posted By: Atom
    Posted By: Tesl01DWell what do you think comes out of the lowest electron shells..?
    Gamma rays come out of the nucleus (if not gamma atmospheres...)
    Yes but a balancing photon pressure requiring gamma or xray photons on a continuous basis sounds like Steorns next save the World miracle energy source.
    Atoms got all the time in the Universe, fella...
    • CommentAuthorTesl01D
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2009
     
    Posted By: AngusTeslo - go back to sonnets, or put down the bottle.
    I was just getting started...
    • CommentAuthorAtom
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2009
     
    "Dunkin Tori" does not work for me!
    • CommentAuthorTesl01D
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2009
     
    Posted By: AngusHow soon before we get a computer-assisted theory in physics? (Or do we already have one?)
    I know Expert Systems are re-proving certain theories -- and one certainly came up with a drop-dead ingenious and novel way to wire certain circuitry... but they pulled the plug on it soon after that.