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      CommentAuthorGrimer
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2009
     


    I can now see what is happening in the Dublin demo.

    Sean is going around his banana in the refrigeration direction so what he has is a heat pump which is drawing energy from the gamma-atmosphere.

    I've little doubt therefore that his claim of overunity is correct. It makes sense in terms of the Steorn cycle. Calorimetry should provide the definitive proof.

    The big question is, has he yet found out how to go round his banana in the opposite direction and so generate mechanical rather than heat energy. That will be the final nail in the coffin of the septics.

    I can also see some other things. But I'll leave those for later.
    • CommentAuthorDivalent
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2009 edited
     
    Wouldn't calorimetry be the definitive proof of OU regardless of the mechanism?

    Sadly, like the skeptics, it's a virtual certainty that you will not get your wish: Steorn ain't gonna let their thingie get near a calorimeter.

    It's odd, really. I think the believers honestly think they have it (as the skeptics honestly believe the opposite) and both groups agree on what a definitive test would be, and yet the company won't do it. Clearly a fraudster would not want it done, nor would someone who suspects (but is not certain) that it won't work but needs it to keep their company going. Why do you think Steorn won't do it?
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    You're not supposed to refrigerate bananas.
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      CommentAuthorGrimer
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2009
     
    Perhaps they have already done it. After all, the gain they are claiming wouldn't be difficult to measure, would it.
    And one has to be pretty confident to choose 419 for the price of a licence.

    From a theoretical point of view their claims make sense to me. Looked at in terms of Iterative Hierarchical Mechanics the Steorn BH cycle and the Carnot cycle differ only in the scales of motion involved.
    • CommentAuthorDivalent
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2009
     
    Posted By: GrimerPerhaps they have already done it. After all, the gain they are claiming wouldn't be difficult to measure, would it.
    And one has to be pretty confident to choose 419 for the price of a licence.
    ...

    I dunno. If what they claim is true, 419 euro is far too low.

    So what is your explanation for this dog and pony show, dragging it out and dancing around the core issue? I mean, after all, the big story would be that they found it, not how it works. Patents expire, and investors (rather than gov grants) dilute shareholder value. Why not get on with it?
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      CommentAuthorGrimer
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2009
     
    It is very difficult to get people to see, let alone accept new ideas. Indeed, even if one is the person who discovers them it takes a long time for the full implications to sink through. For instance, it has taken me this long since the start of the demonstration to recognise what their claim of heat implies in relation to the Steorn cycle. I should have seen that as soon as Steorn made that claim.

    The problem is that people will just ignore Steorn's claim as they have ignored my explanation above. Even Al, who has commented, claims that going round the enclosed area one way is exactly the same as going round it the other. Anyone who has the most elementary knowledge of the Carnot cycle can see that his claim in nonsense and that going round one way leads to the equivalent of the Carnot power cycle and going round the other to the equivalent of the Carnot refrigeration cycle, i.e. to the heat pump cycle.

    At least the way the Steorn have gone about things has guaranteed they have an audience. If Steorn managed to pull this thing off I think that in retrospect their strategy will be seen to have been effective. One must remember that they are business men first, engineers second and scientists last.
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      CommentAuthorGrimer
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2009 edited
     
    Also, one has to bear in mind the way science has progressed over the twentieth century. Simone Weil, had the situation bang to rights when in her essay, "La Science et nous" she wrote,

    ========================================
    What is disastrous is not the rejection of classical science but the way it has been rejected. It is wrongly believed it could progress indefinitely and it ran into a dead end about the year 1900; but scientists failed to stop at the same time in order to contemplate and reflect upon the barrier, they did not try to describe it and define it and, having taken it into account, to draw some general conclusion from it; instead they rushed violently past it, leaving classical science behind them.

    And why should we be surprised at this? For are they not paid to forge continually ahead? Nobody advances in his career, or reputation, or gets a Nobel prize, by standing still. To cease voluntarily from forging ahead, any brilliantly gifted scientist would need to be a saint or a hero, and why should he be a saint or a hero? With rare exceptions there are none to be found among the members of other professions.

    So the scientists forged ahead without revising anything, because any revision would have seemed a retrogression; they merely made an addition.

    ========================================
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2009
     
    Frank are you going to propose an experiment design that can falsify your fanciful ideas, or are you going to just keep wagging your lips?
    • CommentAuthortinker
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2009
     
    Hi.

    I can tell you (if it is at all relevant) that these machines will run in either direction of rotation with slightly more or less efficiency depending merely on pulse timing...Tinker
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2009
     
    As well they should.
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      CommentAuthorGrimer
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2009
     
    Posted By: joshsFrank are you going to propose an experiment design that can falsify your fanciful ideas, or are you going to just keep wagging your lips?

    Simple answer is no. I am not going to propose an experiment cos it ain't my job.

    In the Scientific Civil Service there are effectively three classes of officer.

    Scientific Officers whose job it is to think about what is to be done.

    Experimental Officers whose job it is to work out how to do it.

    Assistant Experimental Officers whose job it is to do it.

    The Army, the Church, the main Civil Service and business for that matter all have essentially the same hierarchical division of labour.

    There is an interesting piece in the Battle of Britain film or the like where the Commanding Officer grabs a machine gun and starts firing at the German planes attacking the airfield. Afterwards he admits he shouldn't have done it because it wasn't his job.

    As for my ideas how about addressing the argument instead of falling back on insults.
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      CommentAuthorGrimer
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2009
     
    Posted By: tinkerHi.

    I can tell you (if it is at all relevant) that these machines will run in either direction of rotation with slightly more or less efficiency depending merely on pulse timing...Tinker

    I sense that you are hinting at an implication there, viz that the direction of rotation is coupled to the direction the enclosed area is being circled, This isn't necessarily so.
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2009
     
    Posted By: Grimer
    Posted By: joshsFrank are you going to propose an experiment design that can falsify your fanciful ideas, or are you going to just keep wagging your lips?

    Simple answer is no. I am not going to propose an experiment cos it ain't my job.
    As I expected, your choice is to just keep wagging your lips making claims that you have neither facts to back, nor the courage to test.


    In the Scientific Civil Service there are effectively three classes of officer.

    Scientific Officers whose job it is to think about what is to be done.

    Experimental Officers whose job it is to work out how to do it.

    Assistant Experimental Officers whose job it is to do it.

    The Army, the Church, the main Civil Service and business for that matter all have essentially the same hierarchical division of labour.

    There is an interesting piece in the Battle of Britain film or the like where the Commanding Officer grabs a machine gun and starts firing at the German planes attacking the airfield. Afterwards he admits he shouldn't have done it because it wasn't his job.

    As for my ideas how about addressing the argument instead of falling back on insults.
    I've offered you the opportunity to back your ideas by proposing a falsifying test. You've instantly retreated. You insult yourself and anyone who would bother to give your ideas a hearing.
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      CommentAuthorgenesis
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2009
     
    LOL...Frank..i've never heard you explaining - what is your gamma atmosphere...btw...
    • CommentAuthorbc
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2009
     
    Frank is off his banana.
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2009
     
    Posted By: genesisLOL...Frank..i've never heard you explaining - what is your gamma atmosphere...btw...
    Frank's got this idea that the universe sucks and blows at the same time. He can't be bothered to come up with any ideas on how to test his ideas. That's for people with other titles. Frank mentions from time to time that he ran afoul of his superiors with his ideas. It's not hard to imagine why.
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2009
     
    Posted By: bc[label for=CommentBox][/label][textarea cols=85 rows=10 id=CommentBox class=SmallCommentBox name=Body][/textarea]
    Frank is a few bananas short of a bunch.
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      CommentAuthorGrimer
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2009
     
    Posted By: genesisLOL...Frank..i've never heard you explaining - what is your gamma atmosphere...btw...
    The gamma-atmosphere is that atmosphere which holds nuclei together by the pressure differential between the outside of the nuclei and the inside.

    The beta atmosphere is that atmosphere which holds atoms together by the differential pressure between the outside of a material and the inside.

    The alpha-atmosphere (the air) is that atmosphere which hold things like sandcastles together by the differential pressure between the outside of the pore water and the inside.

    Tensile forces are simply negations of external compressions. Things are held together from without, not from within - and it's turtles all the way down.
    • CommentAuthortinker
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2009
     
    And, joshs, with almost total cancellation of CEMF. No matter which way the toroids are arranged. T.
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      CommentAuthorgenesis
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2009
     
    Posted By: tinkerAnd, joshs, with almost total cancellation of CEMF. No matter which way the toroids are arranged. T.


    look...explain now to yourself: what would be observed in that device if the CEMF is canceled - please: i'd like you to answer about: 1)curent 2)torque 3)RPM