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  1.  
    Posted By: joshsAre you stringing random crap together now?


    Why not? That's what I do best, isn't it?
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2010
     
    Posted By: overconfident
    Posted By: joshsAre you stringing random crap together now?


    Why not? That's what I do best, isn't it?
    Apparently that is so since your 10%, 20% comment seems to have no connection at all with anything you and I were discussing, yet you offered it as a basis of criticism.
  2.  
    Posted By: joshs
    Posted By: overconfident
    Posted By: joshsAre you stringing random crap together now?


    Why not? That's what I do best, isn't it?
    Apparently that is so since your 10%, 20% comment seems to have no connection at all with anything you and I were discussing, yet you offered it as a basis of criticism.


    You said: "Less energy can be recovered from the magnetic field of the toroid electromagnet with the rotor moving past than without it. That says nothing about the energy required to saturate per-se."

    I said: "Current increases less than 10% and the rotor speed (kinetic energy) increases by 20%. Sounds like we are getting a bargain here. I wonder what the final cost will be if we continue negotiating?"

    It made sense to me.
    • CommentAuthorMrEntropy
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2010
     
    Posted By: Angus
    Posted By: MrEntropyLet Isat be the current at which the inductor would normally saturate. When you add an external magnet, the inductance is lower for currents < Isat, but HIGHER for currents > Isat

    How can this be? When the core saturates, the inductance is the same as the inductance of an air coil.


    Let M be the core magnetization vector, H_coil be the field applied by the coil. When current > Isat, M is in the H_coil direction, and small changes to H_coil don't affect M -- dM/dH_coil = 0.

    Now add a field H_mag applied by an external magnet. Now M is still at its maximum value, but its in the direction of H_coil+H_mag. (rougly -- M in the core is not uniform and the actual behaviour is complicated) Now, small changes to H_coil do not change the magnitude of M, but they do change its direction, by changing the direction of H_coil+H_mag, so dM/dH_coil != 0.

    Inductance is proportional to 1/( dM /dH_coil ) in the H_coil direction, so with the same current > Isat, it is greater in the second case than in the first.
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2010
     
    Posted By: overconfident
    Posted By: joshs
    Posted By: overconfident
    Posted By: joshsAre you stringing random crap together now?


    Why not? That's what I do best, isn't it?
    Apparently that is so since your 10%, 20% comment seems to have no connection at all with anything you and I were discussing, yet you offered it as a basis of criticism.


    You said: "Less energy can be recovered from the magnetic field of the toroid electromagnet with the rotor moving past than without it. That says nothing about the energy required to saturate per-se."

    I said: "Current increases less than 10% and the rotor speed (kinetic energy) increases by 20%. Sounds like we are getting a bargain here. I wonder what the final cost will be if we continue negotiating?"

    It made sense to me.
    Then you are an idiot who confuses units of current for units of energy, and percentages for absolutes.
    •  
      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2010
     
    Posted By: MrEntropyet M be the core magnetization vector, H_coil be the field applied by the coil. When current > Isat, M is in the H_coil direction, and small changes to H_coil don't affect M -- dM/dH_coil = 0.

    Now add a field H_mag applied by an external magnet. Now M is still at its maximum value, but its in the direction of H_coil+H_mag. (rougly -- M in the core is not uniform and the actual behaviour is complicated) Now, small changes to H_coil do not change the magnitude of M, but they do change its direction, by changing the direction of H_coil+H_mag, so dM/dH_coil != 0.

    Inductance is proportional to 1/( dM /dH_coil ) in the H_coil direction, so with the same current > Isat, it is greater in the second case than in the first.


    Damn! Hoist with my own petard!! I just finished telling everyone that direction was important and I forgot it myself as regards the induction. Thanks!
  3.  
    Posted By: joshs
    Then you are an idiot who confuses units of current for units of energy, and percentages for absolutes.


    In the absence of any voltage readings, I assumed they didn't change. I could easily be proven wrong.
  4.  
    I still don't quite get how the math predicts that the repulsive orientation of the additional magnet works "better" than the attractive orientation.
    Can someone explain it to me in picture-words, as if I were your semi-senile grandmother's back-door man?

    Meanwhile, I've just been letting Orbette run as a background process, and it is now up to 221 Hz with excursions above 222 on occasion, and apparently still climbing slowly. The meters say 9.9 volts and 3.76 Amps.
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2010
     
    Posted By: alsetalokinI still don't quite get how the math predicts that the repulsive orientation of the additional magnet works "better" than the attractive orientation.
    Can someone explain it to me in picture-words, as if I were your semi-senile grandmother's back-door man?

    Meanwhile, I've just been letting Orbette run as a background process, and it is now up to 221 Hz with excursions above 222 on occasion, and apparently still climbing slowly. The meters say 9.9 volts and 3.76 Amps.
    I suspect that the closer you get to a driven pulse motor, ie one with zero iron in the toroid the better your efficiency will get.
    •  
      CommentAuthormaryyugo
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2010 edited
     
    The meters say 9.9 volts and 3.76 Amps.
    Yes but how much is the generator putting out (so to speak)?

    PS: You could almost make tea with that power. It's about what a 12 volt coffee maker consumes. Of course with one of those on a sailboat, it can take a half hour to start perking. And it's best to prewarm the water on the alcohol stove!
  5.  
    Posted By: joshs
    Posted By: alsetalokinI still don't quite get how the math predicts that the repulsive orientation of the additional magnet works "better" than the attractive orientation.
    Can someone explain it to me in picture-words, as if I were your semi-senile grandmother's back-door man?

    Meanwhile, I've just been letting Orbette run as a background process, and it is now up to 221 Hz with excursions above 222 on occasion, and apparently still climbing slowly. The meters say 9.9 volts and 3.76 Amps.
    I suspect that the closer you get to a driven pulse motor, ie one with zero iron in the toroid the better your efficiency will get.

    Agreed. But then all the dye would have washed off the red herring.
    •  
      CommentAuthorAngus
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2010
     
    Posted By: maryyugoYou could almost make tea with that power. It's about what a 12 volt coffee maker consumes. Of course with one of those on a sailboat, it can take a half hour to start perking. And it's best to prewarm the water on the alcohol stove!


    Takes a while to warm water on an alcohol stove, I find. You could preheat it with a 12V heater, perhaps.

    (That's why I invested in all those electric cutout valves and sensors and went to propane.)
  6.  
    Posted By: overconfidentIt made sense to me.
    You really can be a dickhead, joshs. oc is not malicious, & is not deserving of the vast majority of insults thrown his way. Why do you want to make people feel depressed (either at their own failings or your dickheadedness)? This is all you are doing. You may deem his knowledge/insight unworthy, but this is a man who wants to know. Such people should be admired, not insulted.
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2010
     
    Posted By: Suns_On_Earth
    Posted By: overconfidentIt made sense to me.
    You really can be a dickhead, joshs. oc is not malicious, & is not deserving of the vast majority of insults thrown his way. Why do you want to make people feel depressed (either at their own failings or your dickheadedness)? This is all you are doing. You may deem his knowledge/insight unworthy, but this is a man who wants toknow. Such people should be admired, not insulted.
    WTF are you on about?
  7.  
    It's ok. I'm sure it sounds different in your head.
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2010
     
    Whatever "it" is. OC pulled a bunch of bull shit from left field. Why you think it is offensive to call people out when they spew bull shit is your own concern.
    • CommentAuthorBigOilRep
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2010
     
    This is the internet after all. It was invented for insulting strangers at very long distances.
  8.  
    Posted By: joshsWhatever "it" is. OC pulled a bunch of bull shit from left field. Why you think it is offensive to call people out when they spew bull shit is your own concern.
    There was no "spewing".. It was simply an extrapolation. Rightly or wrongly. Your (anyone's) vitriol is not good for you or anyone else. You may gain some form of enjoyment from your 'discussion method', but I contend that this is just another 'problem' humanity has. As such, I understand that you will find it hard to agree with me. Just look in your.. err.. heart.
    • CommentAuthorjoshs
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2010
     
    Posted By: Suns_On_Earth
    Posted By: joshsWhatever "it" is. OC pulled a bunch of bull shit from left field. Why you think it is offensive to call people out when they spew bull shit is your own concern.
    There was no "spewing".. It was simply an extrapolation. Rightly or wrongly. Your (anyone's) vitriol is not good for you or anyone else. You may gain some form of enjoyment from your 'discussion method', but I contend that this is just another 'problem' humanity has. As such, I understand that you will find it hard to agree with me. Just look in your.. err.. heart.
    SOE I don't know what you're smoking today, but it must be potent stuff. Extrapolation you say? What did OC extrapolate, and what did he extrapolate it from? He tossed complete nonsensical nonsequitors into a thread when he got called out for misrepresentations.
  9.  
    Thanks for the support, Suns, but I don't need it. I've come to expect the responses I get. I'm just tossing out random thoughts as they enter my skull. I'm sure a lot of them sound like nonsense. But I do think there's a bit more substance to some of the things I spout than what someone like joshs is capable of fathoming. I do hope there's someone out there getting more from my demented ravings than he seems to.